Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JusticeMachine · 12-09-2002, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
No a man shouldn't for he has no authority to do so.

IMO, a man shouldn't because it would be wrong to do so. With your logic, if a man had the authority, then by golly he should release his wrath on the woman!

GOD however does have the authority to pass final judgement on what he has created.

So god, apparently, must create us with free will to assure we serve him by choice but, if we choose not to serve him, apparently must judge (and condemn) us for exercising that "god-given" free choice in a way that he doesn't approve?

It sounds like a shotgun wedding to me.

We are speaking from the precept that the Bible is correct, and if it is, then, in that context GOD has the right to do with his creation what he sees fit, because he is the creator of it. It is a good thing he has lowered the bar for us, before Christ came, was had to be judged perfect by his law or be condemned, but now all we need to do is believe in his diety and allow it to affect and change us to be deemed worthy.

Again, speaking for a biblical stand point, people are equal in GOD's eyes, so a man would never have authority over a woman to release his wrath, for it is written:

Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[ 12:19 Deut. 32:35] says the Lord.

If you believe in the bible

Philosoft · 12-09-2002, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JusticeMachine:

GOD however does have the authority to pass final judgement on what he has created.

You still haven't answered the question. You haven't said anything besides 'God does what God does.' Assuming God is capable of creating a free-willed being who never chooses evil, why does God need to create beings who do choose evil? Does the population of humans need to be a cross-section of behavior types or something? Why couldn't he just create 6 billion Mohandas Gandhis?

Mageth · 12-09-2002, 01:37 PM

Again, speaking for a biblical stand point, people are equal in GOD's eyes, so a man would never have authority over a woman to release his wrath

Speaking from a biblical standpoint, there are plenty of examples where women aren't considered equal to men, and where men are given authority over women.

Once again, what's authority have to do with it, anyway? Would a man releasing his wrath be justified (and morally good) if the man only had the "authority"?

but now all we need to do is believe in his diety and allow it to affect and change us to be deemed worthy

Believe or else! How "free" is free will if god is holding a gun to our head? If he really wanted us to freely choose to serve him, why the threat of "god's wrath" if we don't so choose? That seems to be a pretty big monkey wrench in the whole "free will" argument to me.

JusticeMachine · 12-09-2002, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft:


You still haven't answered the question. You haven't said anything besides 'God does what God does.' Assuming God is capable of creating a free-willed being who never chooses evil, why does God need to create beings who do choose evil? Does the population of humans need to be a cross-section of behavior types or something? Why couldn't he just create 6 billion Mohandas Gandhis?

It's that we have the choice to do evil, but out of love and respect for GOD we don't. That gives us value to him. It is out of resect and love for me that my wife (as far as I know) doesn't sleep around on me. (she said all those men who keep comming over are just close friends of her......hhhmmm.....I wonder

)

I just want to state for the record, that we will never know everything about GOD or understand completely the totality of his will for everyone. It is impossible, in one life time, for a finite human mind to understand the GOD for he is infinite.

I know that sounds like a cop-out, but I think in all subjects were the infinite is expressed, like time, gravity, possibly matter, that the human psyche has extreme trouble wrapping itself around the concept.

I don't know how to get around it, until I do, I just accept it.

Mageth · 12-09-2002, 01:59 PM

It is impossible, in one life time, for a finite human mind to understand the GOD for he is infinite.

If you can't understand him, then how can you know he's "infinite" (whatever that means in this context)? How can you make any positive claims about him?

JusticeMachine · 12-09-2002, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
Again, speaking for a biblical stand point, people are equal in GOD's eyes, so a man would never have authority over a woman to release his wrath

Speaking from a biblical standpoint, there are plenty of examples where women aren't considered equal to men, and where men are given authority over women.

Once again, what's authority have to do with it, anyway? Would a man releasing his wrath be justified (and morally good) if the man only had the "authority"?

but now all we need to do is believe in his diety and allow it to affect and change us to be deemed worthy

Believe or else! How "free" is free will if god is holding a gun to our head? If he really wanted us to freely choose to serve him, why the threat of "god's wrath" if we don't so choose? That seems to be a pretty big monkey wrench in the whole "free will" argument to me.

It's my pet peeve when people say "it says somewhere in the bible thus and such a thing" and don't leave a specific area they are citing, so we can discuss that peticular occurance.

Well humans seldom do what makes sense do they. If they did we would have achohaulics, unwanted pregancies or suicide.

But we most people don't follow the will of GOD because (I am guessing, you are one of these)they don't have faith that he is the GOD he says he is, or they don't believe in any GOD what so ever.

Or worse yet, then try to lump all GODs into one and say they are the same One GOD, and the ends justify the means in how you choose to follow IT.
Nevermind that there are areas of the Bible that directly contradict that view. Such as:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

Mageth · 12-09-2002, 02:38 PM

It's my pet peeve when people say "it says somewhere in the bible thus and such a thing" and don't leave a specific area they are citing, so we can discuss that peticular occurance.

You mean like when you said:

Again, speaking for a biblical stand point, people are equal in GOD's eyes

Here's two "occurrences" for you:

- The Old Testament; and
- The New Testament, particularly Paul's teaching.

But really, that subject's an aside, and best left to another thread.

Well humans seldom do what makes sense do they. If they did we would have achohaulics, unwanted pregancies or suicide.

It's my pet peeve when someone makes a non sequitur. But answering anyway, I think people quite often do what makes sense. Most people aren't alcoholics, don't have unwanted pregnancies, and don't commit suicide.

But we most people don't follow the will of GOD because (I am guessing, you are one of these)they don't have faith that he is the GOD he says he is, or they don't believe in any GOD what so ever.

Right, I don't believe in any god. And surprise, I'm not an alcoholic, have never had or caused an unwanted pregnancy, and have never attempted suicide.

Or worse yet, then try to lump all GODs into one and say they are the same One GOD, and the ends justify the means in how you choose to follow IT.
Nevermind that there are areas of the Bible that directly contradict that view. Such as:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

If your arguments fall flat on their face, and you can't answer the questions, throw another scripture their way? Don't you know that the bible carries as much weight with me (and most others around here) as the Koran or a Superman comic?

"Nevermind" that there are "areas" of other, non-xian religious texts that directly contradict "that view" and the NT biblical view. Islam claims Allah as the one true god, and Islam the way to Allah, does it not?

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

JusticeMachine · 12-09-2002, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
It is impossible, in one life time, for a finite human mind to understand the GOD for he is infinite.

If you can't understand him, then how can you know he's "infinite" (whatever that means in this context)? How can you make any positive claims about him?

Well, simple. I have faith that GOD's word is true.

He describes himself that way, I choose to believe in him.

Mageth · 12-09-2002, 02:53 PM

Well, simple. I have faith that GOD's word is true.

Then it is true that god couldn't handle iron chariots?

Judges 1:19: �So the Lord was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron.�

He describes himself that way, I choose to believe in him.

If you can't understand the infinite god, how do you know he's not lying? Perhaps something you don't know about god is that he's a liar, an evil god, out to deceive us?

JusticeMachine · 12-09-2002, 03:05 PM

My point in saying that things like suicide, unwanted pragnacies and addictions is simple to point out that offend time we all do things that are a bit counter productive to our well being.

You don't believe in GOD, at that does not mean that you will partake of these things, however I'll bet you have done things which you regard as a mistake, and would correct if you had the opportunity. That is what I mean by not making sense.

And for your benifit, since you are obviously uncomfortable with quotes from the bible, then I will despence with them <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

In regards to your comment on Allah, because he contradicts the new testament, the GOD of the new testament and Allah, can't be the same GOD. I'm sure a devout Muslim will agree with me on that.

I can say with certainty that either Allah exist, or GOD of the newtestament exist, or neither one exist. But they can't both exist. There is only room for one almighty, infinite GOD in the universe. We all can't be right, we could all be wrong, but that is where faith is derived from isn't it.

12-09-2002, 02:38 PM	#17
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	It's my pet peeve when people say "it says somewhere in the bible thus and such a thing" and don't leave a specific area they are citing, so we can discuss that peticular occurance. You mean like when you said: Again, speaking for a biblical stand point, people are equal in GOD's eyes Here's two "occurrences" for you: - The Old Testament; and - The New Testament, particularly Paul's teaching. But really, that subject's an aside, and best left to another thread. Well humans seldom do what makes sense do they. If they did we would have achohaulics, unwanted pregancies or suicide. It's my pet peeve when someone makes a non sequitur. But answering anyway, I think people quite often do what makes sense. Most people aren't alcoholics, don't have unwanted pregnancies, and don't commit suicide. But we most people don't follow the will of GOD because (I am guessing, you are one of these)they don't have faith that he is the GOD he says he is, or they don't believe in any GOD what so ever. Right, I don't believe in any god. And surprise, I'm not an alcoholic, have never had or caused an unwanted pregnancy, and have never attempted suicide. Or worse yet, then try to lump all GODs into one and say they are the same One GOD, and the ends justify the means in how you choose to follow IT. Nevermind that there are areas of the Bible that directly contradict that view. Such as: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me If your arguments fall flat on their face, and you can't answer the questions, throw another scripture their way? Don't you know that the bible carries as much weight with me (and most others around here) as the Koran or a Superman comic? "Nevermind" that there are "areas" of other, non-xian religious texts that directly contradict "that view" and the NT biblical view. Islam claims Allah as the one true god, and Islam the way to Allah, does it not? [ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

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12-09-2002, 01:37 PM	#13
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Again, speaking for a biblical stand point, people are equal in GOD's eyes, so a man would never have authority over a woman to release his wrath Speaking from a biblical standpoint, there are plenty of examples where women aren't considered equal to men, and where men are given authority over women. Once again, what's authority have to do with it, anyway? Would a man releasing his wrath be justified (and morally good) if the man only had the "authority"? but now all we need to do is believe in his diety and allow it to affect and change us to be deemed worthy Believe or else! How "free" is free will if god is holding a gun to our head? If he really wanted us to freely choose to serve him, why the threat of "god's wrath" if we don't so choose? That seems to be a pretty big monkey wrench in the whole "free will" argument to me.

12-09-2002, 01:59 PM	#15
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	It is impossible, in one life time, for a finite human mind to understand the GOD for he is infinite. If you can't understand him, then how can you know he's "infinite" (whatever that means in this context)? How can you make any positive claims about him?

12-09-2002, 02:53 PM	#19
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Well, simple. I have faith that GOD's word is true. Then it is true that god couldn't handle iron chariots? Judges 1:19: �So the Lord was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron.� He describes himself that way, I choose to believe in him. If you can't understand the infinite god, how do you know he's not lying? Perhaps something you don't know about god is that he's a liar, an evil god, out to deceive us?

12-09-2002, 03:05 PM	#20
JusticeMachine Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 403	My point in saying that things like suicide, unwanted pragnacies and addictions is simple to point out that offend time we all do things that are a bit counter productive to our well being. You don't believe in GOD, at that does not mean that you will partake of these things, however I'll bet you have done things which you regard as a mistake, and would correct if you had the opportunity. That is what I mean by not making sense. And for your benifit, since you are obviously uncomfortable with quotes from the bible, then I will despence with them <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> In regards to your comment on Allah, because he contradicts the new testament, the GOD of the new testament and Allah, can't be the same GOD. I'm sure a devout Muslim will agree with me on that. I can say with certainty that either Allah exist, or GOD of the newtestament exist, or neither one exist. But they can't both exist. There is only room for one almighty, infinite GOD in the universe. We all can't be right, we could all be wrong, but that is where faith is derived from isn't it.

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