Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 05-12-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Further, some religions (Buddhism) see the Christ, or Buddha, as within you, accessible by you for your own enlightenment - not as some external force or being to which one must submit.

One may have to submit to an external God in the beginning, but only to find he will come yo "make my abode with him." The appeal and power of Christianity is that God comes to live within us to "will and work in us the things which please him." And you don't have to spend a fortune on dolls, incense and teachers before it happens either. You'd have to pick a lot of nits before I see any practical difference.

Rad

Bumble Bee Tuna · 05-12-2003, 08:09 PM

To refresh your memory:

Quote:

Originall posted by me:

here's my beef.

If the Bible was divinely inspired in some places, but not in others...How did that difference come to pass? You seem to believe that the Holy Spirit guides you in choosing the right parts of the Bible to believe. Why couldn't the Holy Spirit guide the authors of the Bible?

You really need to go in depth on what things you believe and what you don't, it's hard to discuss otherwise. For instance, is it inspired/uninspired on a per-book basis? Or is it on a per-verse basis?

If it's on a per-book basis:

Why did the Holy Spirit not guide the early church to pick the right books? The church also had a process where they picked books which matched their oral traditions, which would be coming straight from Jesus in a lot of ways. Why would that oral tradition also be wrong?

If it's on a per-verse/per-chapter basis:

Why did God pick such poor messengers? Because if parts of a book are false and parts are true, then the false parts are certainly either additions by the prophet or lies from God himself. I assume we're ruling out that God lies to us, so that means we're stuck with either a prophet adding in lies or his message getting incredibly warped. I find the warping theory to be ridiculous, since they wrote it down themselves. For warping to occur it would have to be oral and then written by someone else, or written but copied by a malicious transcriber. That just didn't happen.

So we're stuck with the lot of God's messengers being liars who can't resist making up stories. The question is, WHY? Why would they do that? Here they are, entrusted by God Himself. Why is God trusting such awful people to do his work? Why is God's revelation inadequate and needing lies? Why doesn't God punish his messengers for putting in lies? Why would God let his Divine Message, the most important thing in the world, to get corrupted???

It just makes absolutely no sense.

The question that ruins a fundamentalist is:

Why is the Bible wrong about so many things, if it's inerrant?

The question that ruins cherry pickers is:

Why does God let his message be corrupted, and how did it happen?

You really need to explain, in detail, a plausible scenario. A real, detailed description of how God's message would get corrupted, and why He would let it happen.

Could you please try to answer this?

B

Tercel · 05-12-2003, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
There's one thing - not all religions, thank Gog, include the concept of fallen, corrupt man.

Why is that a bad concept? You need only take a quick look at the world to see that man ain't perfect.

Quote:

Another, related thing - not all religions have the good/evil dichotomy (considering them complementary aspects of the same existence), or denigrate man as being inherently sinful and thus falling on the "evil" side unless Christ is applied. Further, some religions (Buddhism) see the Christ, or Buddha, as within you, accessible by you for your own enlightenment - not as some external force or being to which one must submit.

I don't really see why a good/evil dichotomy is bad - surely if everything believe in good/evil and did their best to do good the world would be a better place than in a world where everyone considered them both okay?
I don't think it's fair to say that Christianity considers man "evil" either.
Christianity sees Christ as being within you as well as external, so I don't see your point about Buddhism.

Quote:

Here's another thing. Buddhism, in particular, teaches that all paths to enlightenment, if taken correctly, can lead one to a fulfilled, "enlightened" life - to a realization of the Buddha, or of the Christ, within you. There is no "most true religion."

Well, that might sound nice to your average politically correct postmodernist, but I wouldn't consider that a bonus myself.

Rational BAC · 05-13-2003, 01:18 AM

Starboy---

You are right. There probably is a way to compose a post AND look back on previous posts at the same time. I just haven't figured how to do it yet.-------------So I have to rely on my memory a lot when replying to posts.

Jinto---

I would think that Allah would be nicer about it than that. But you might be right. He might be seriously p====d off.

Would you accept at least the possibility of the existence of an entity 1000 times smarter than humans and with 10 senses? How far would you go and still think a higher entity than human life would be possible? Just curious--give me a number that YOU think is a rational number.

And I really like the pure energy idea as being a possible life entity. Are you sure you are not narrowing your thinking just a bit?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And that is the limit of my memory of previous posts for this post. Sorry about that Starboy.

Asha'man · 05-13-2003, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Would you accept at least the possibility of the existence of an entity 1000 times smarter than humans and with 10 senses? How far would you go and still think a higher entity than human life would be possible? Just curious--give me a number that YOU think is a rational number.

And I really like the pure energy idea as being a possible life entity. Are you sure you are not narrowing your thinking just a bit?

I think you have carried your imaginings too far, and without basis. It�s like counting 1,3,5,7 and deciding that the sequence can be followed forever, therefore all odd numbers must be prime.

Sure, it's possible that more intelligent beings exist in this universe, it's also possible that they don't. But you have made an enormous leap when you jumped from a physical brain to a disembodied one. You have speculated your way from the land of the possible into the land of the impossible.

Ever instance of intelligence that we have ever seen requires a physical medium to function. When that physical medium is damaged, the intelligence is damaged in direct proportion. Intelligence is a property of the physical medium, and therefore cannot be separated from it.

Rational BAC · 05-13-2003, 06:02 AM

OK

Let me try Bumble Bee now.

I think somewhere along the line you misinterpreted me. Or could be my fault. I waver sometimes in my own analysis of the Bible and I am sure that can be confusing to others.

I think I did say I waver between considering some parts of the Bible to be divine-------------------and considering the Bible to be in NO WAY divine.

And most of the time I pick the latter. ---Because it makes the most sense.

And Cherry Picking works in either case-----even better when you consider the Bible NOT to be divine. (Divine in the sense that God came into people's heads and told them what to write--- or even inspired people to write it) I think it most likely that God stayed out of the whole thing. Just let Man figure out for himself and write down for himself what he thought occured from oral tradition 2000 years ago.

Why would God do such a thing? Darned if I know for sure, but God can do any damned thing He pleases can't He? And reading the Bible, I think that is what happened. At least that makes the most sense as to what happened.

And this man-made Bible could be, in the eyes of God, just a multiple choice test==a cherry pickers delight. We may be graded later on on the cherries we picked. It is quite possible that those fundamentalist Christians may find themselves before our Lord some day and our Lord may say ------------- "Good God, I can't believe you actually bought all that crap-----------what are you stupid or something?"

Taking the Bible as a purely man-made document with no direct interference by God.----------which is what I do most of the time---You are pretty much left with Cherry Picking as the best means to deal with such an imperfect and man made document.----in trying to get a general idea of the life of Jesus, and what He was trying to convey.

What is wrong with considering the Bible to be a man made attempt at explaining supernatural events that occurred around people who lived maybe 3 or 4 generations before them?

I still do not see why both non-theists and Christian fundamentalists get so upset over this notion. Seems a perfectly legitimate way of looking at the Bible --- IMHO (well, maybe not so humble)

And solves a lot of problems for me in my faith. I think that although many may consider me to be not a Christian because of my thoughts on this-----------they are wrong. I think I am very much a Christian, and probably the best kind of all.

Howay the Toon · 05-13-2003, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel

Literally speaking: Is there anything good those other religions have got which Christianity ain't got already?

Perhaps a more relavent question would be:

Is there anything good Christianity has that non-theistic philosophy ain't got already?

That shoudl highlight what to the Cherry picker are the essentials which lead them to decribe themselves as a Christian.

Treacle Worshipper · 05-13-2003, 06:52 AM

Rational BAC,

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Starboy---

You are right. There probably is a way to compose a post AND look back on previous posts at the same time. I just haven't figured how to do it yet.-------------So I have to rely on my memory a lot when replying to posts.

You can use the "quote" button in the bottom right-hand corner of every post to quote that post into the grey box you type your reply into. Then the specific post you are responding to is right in front of your eyes.

You can also scroll down the reply page (the one with the grey box that you type in at the top) to see the other posts in the thread.

If there are more than 25 posts in a thread, there is a line at the bottom of the page which says:
This thread has more than 25 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.
If you click "here", it will open a new window which starts at the beginning of the thread and allows you to review all the posts in the thread.

I hope this helps.
TW

Treacle Worshipper · 05-13-2003, 06:59 AM

More refreshment for Rational BAC's memory:

Quote:

Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper
Rational BAC,

I think the fundamental (no pun intended!) question from my point of view is:

If none of the Bible is divinely inspired (which you admit may be a possibility:My most logical conclusion is that NO part of the Bible was directly inspired by God.), where do you get your idea of a saviour/god/spiritual guide from?

Presumably this guide has led you to the Bible & helps you choose which bits to follow. But where did it come from in the first place?

TW

I'm even more interested in your response to this question following you rreply to Bumble Bee Tuna. What led you to cherry pick from the Bible in the first place?

What is wrong with considering the Bible to be a man made attempt at explaining supernatural events that occurred around people who lived maybe 3 or 4 generations before them?
Uh, because there is no evidence of any supernatural events ever happening.

TW

Rational BAC · 05-13-2003, 07:21 AM

Thanks Treakle--

That does help a lot. Printed your post out for future reference.

I probably will still break things up though as far as answering replies from many different posts----or many different subjects within one post. I hate long posts with multiple subjects myself-----either done by myself or others.

Again------Thanks

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05-13-2003, 01:18 AM	#104
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Starboy--- You are right. There probably is a way to compose a post AND look back on previous posts at the same time. I just haven't figured how to do it yet.-------------So I have to rely on my memory a lot when replying to posts. Jinto--- I would think that Allah would be nicer about it than that. But you might be right. He might be seriously p====d off. Would you accept at least the possibility of the existence of an entity 1000 times smarter than humans and with 10 senses? How far would you go and still think a higher entity than human life would be possible? Just curious--give me a number that YOU think is a rational number. And I really like the pure energy idea as being a possible life entity. Are you sure you are not narrowing your thinking just a bit? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- And that is the limit of my memory of previous posts for this post. Sorry about that Starboy.

05-13-2003, 06:02 AM	#106
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	OK Let me try Bumble Bee now. I think somewhere along the line you misinterpreted me. Or could be my fault. I waver sometimes in my own analysis of the Bible and I am sure that can be confusing to others. I think I did say I waver between considering some parts of the Bible to be divine-------------------and considering the Bible to be in NO WAY divine. And most of the time I pick the latter. ---Because it makes the most sense. And Cherry Picking works in either case-----even better when you consider the Bible NOT to be divine. (Divine in the sense that God came into people's heads and told them what to write--- or even inspired people to write it) I think it most likely that God stayed out of the whole thing. Just let Man figure out for himself and write down for himself what he thought occured from oral tradition 2000 years ago. Why would God do such a thing? Darned if I know for sure, but God can do any damned thing He pleases can't He? And reading the Bible, I think that is what happened. At least that makes the most sense as to what happened. And this man-made Bible could be, in the eyes of God, just a multiple choice test==a cherry pickers delight. We may be graded later on on the cherries we picked. It is quite possible that those fundamentalist Christians may find themselves before our Lord some day and our Lord may say ------------- "Good God, I can't believe you actually bought all that crap-----------what are you stupid or something?" Taking the Bible as a purely man-made document with no direct interference by God.----------which is what I do most of the time---You are pretty much left with Cherry Picking as the best means to deal with such an imperfect and man made document.----in trying to get a general idea of the life of Jesus, and what He was trying to convey. What is wrong with considering the Bible to be a man made attempt at explaining supernatural events that occurred around people who lived maybe 3 or 4 generations before them? I still do not see why both non-theists and Christian fundamentalists get so upset over this notion. Seems a perfectly legitimate way of looking at the Bible --- IMHO (well, maybe not so humble) And solves a lot of problems for me in my faith. I think that although many may consider me to be not a Christian because of my thoughts on this-----------they are wrong. I think I am very much a Christian, and probably the best kind of all.

05-13-2003, 06:52 AM	#108
Treacle Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 931	Rational BAC, Originally posted by Rational BAC Starboy--- You are right. There probably is a way to compose a post AND look back on previous posts at the same time. I just haven't figured how to do it yet.-------------So I have to rely on my memory a lot when replying to posts. You can use the "quote" button in the bottom right-hand corner of every post to quote that post into the grey box you type your reply into. Then the specific post you are responding to is right in front of your eyes. You can also scroll down the reply page (the one with the grey box that you type in at the top) to see the other posts in the thread. If there are more than 25 posts in a thread, there is a line at the bottom of the page which says: This thread has more than 25 replies. Click here to review the whole thread. If you click "here", it will open a new window which starts at the beginning of the thread and allows you to review all the posts in the thread. I hope this helps. TW

05-13-2003, 07:21 AM	#110
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Thanks Treakle-- That does help a lot. Printed your post out for future reference. I probably will still break things up though as far as answering replies from many different posts----or many different subjects within one post. I hate long posts with multiple subjects myself-----either done by myself or others. Again------Thanks

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