Clutch

VZ, your huffy act very conveniently served to derail the crucial point made by Dr S. His story contains many facts, and one claim known to be physically impossible. So, we conclude that at least that element of the story is false.

Why is it not special pleading to treat the gospels any other way?

Your responses have all simply made reference to the gospels; the reason why the gospels really are accurate is because, look, the gospels say this really happened!

Yuck. By those standards, the complete truth of Dr S's story is established simply by referring back to his story, which, after all, says he walked on water.

Please set aside your bruised ego, and address the double standard.

Starboy

Vanderzeyden, how should I know if god exists. If it does exists, it is irrelevant. Unless someone can show me that there is a difference between there acutally being a god and people thinking there is a god, it will remain irrelevant. As someone once said, if god did not exists man would invent it. For all I know that is exactly what has happened.

Starboy

Keith Russell

Greetings:

I find it apalling that a member of the species 'rational animal' would choose to be so devoted to an arbitrary belief that he or she would use a human mind to convince him or her self that there might be a 'greater good' invovled in human pain and suffering.

If that is the kind of God which exists, then all of humanity should join in overthrowing this 'God', for surely this 'God' would be our enemy--and those who could worship such a 'God' would be traitors to their kind.

Keith.

Vanderzyden

Vorkosigan,

I can appreciate your reply, for it moves us from the abstract to the practical. First, let me say that--if you are not speaking hypothetically--this is indeed a horrible tragedy. Although I don't know you, it is very saddening for me to learn. I can easily imagine that, on your own, it is difficult to comprehend the problems that have plagued your sister.

I hesistate somewhat in addressing this at the practical level, since I have yet to experience a similar tragedy. But let me try...

What I observe often is that men don't ask God to be involved in their lives. They don't inquire about him, nor do they ask him for things. But when a tragedy strikes, some are quick to blame him for allowing it to happen. They insist that they don't deserve it. Perhaps they point to the "innocence" of a newborn with birth defects and ask how a loving God could permit such an atrocity. But it seems that these same people have not looked far enough in finding answers to their questions.

It's likely that you don't accept the answer I am going to relay here, but there is an answer. It is an answer that you only find in the Bible. The answer to the problem of pain is this:

Suffering is permitted so that God's glory will be demonstrated.

Before you simply ridicule this notion, let me elaborate further. Yes, it does seem paradoxical, but this "foolishness" is found throughout the Scriptures. Consider the wonders displayed before the Egyptians just prior to the exodus, or the craziness of the prophets, or, most importantly, the life of Jesus of Nazareth. He came to deal directly with the problem of pain:

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

-- John 9:1-3

Surely you have heard of people who have suffered and yet do not blame God. You will even find some that will praise him, despite the pain. Is that not puzzling to you? My experience is that they will be quick to tell you it is because they have adopted a different perspective.

So, my concern here is not to determine who deserves suffering. Instead, I am insisting that men--who are inherently evil--have no claim upon a perfect God in asking him if they deserve suffering or not. Do you see the distinction? Let us not talk about who deserves to suffer, but let us be careful about what we lay at the feet of God, insisting that we don't merit any suffering.

We read in the gospel accounts that Jesus himself knew he would experience suffering--a most humiliating death--and yet he did not reject God on account of the coming pain. In fact, he continually drew parallels between his purpose and the ultimate elimination of suffering. And, Jesus' words about the sparrow indicate God's deep concern for all life, especially that of men and women:

29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

-- Matthew 10:29-31

This reminds me of a recent hike with some co-workers in Desolation Wilderness near Lake Tahoe. One of them said, "This is all so beautiful, and so much more grand than I." I challenged him on that, insisting that he was worth far more than any mountain. But he couldn't understand what I was getting at.

If you read the Scriptures you will discover this very thing--the immense worth of human beings. Front to back, from Genesis to Revelation, we are reminded of who we really are. Your sister has an immeasurable value, Vork.

God knows about, and yes, he allows suffering. In fact, at the tomb of Lazarus, Jesus himself wept over the suffering that we experience. But, permitting suffering doesn't equate to "torture". Sure, you are justified in asking "Why?" You are onto to something. But I encourage you to seriously consider that the answer may be different than the one to which you presently accept.

Vanderzyden

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]</p>

Starboy

Is there a place on this forum specifically for preaching and proselytizing? Perhaps that is where you should be posting Vanderzeyden. Your intentions become clearer with each post. It does explain your thin skin.

Starboy

General Zod

It is just a river in Egypt.