Freethought & Rationalism Archive

wdog · 10-07-2002, 03:25 PM

Quote:

K yours is the real question that even we christians struggle with. Do you choose to have kids even if there is a chance that he will use his free will to reject a relationship with you? Most parents I know willingly took the risk, and why should God be any different? Just because he knows the beginning from the end (he is outside time) doesnt negate our real choices. Hell is the natural consequence of a life chosen to be lived on your own terms, independent of any one elses views, and is the ultimate in being left on your own. Heaven is for those who choose to live in communion with the creator. Unless you satisfy Gods justice by giving Him a reason to make you able to bear His presence (ie accept His Son, jesus), you could not bear to stand in His presence and would prefer Hell, bad as it is.

first of all, it is a contradiction to say that god is so perfect that can't stand to be in the presence of imperfection. that would be a flaw, we humans call that arrogant perfectionism. I can stand to be in the presence of most any imperfect being, and they can remain 'imperfect' in my presence, no problem there as long as they are not being malicious

the difference between me and your god is that i would leave the door open even in an AFTER life. think of the circumstances, he is an absentee parent who prefers to leave a book to read about him instead of just being here. no real loving parent simply demands prayer, meditation and worship (which can only serve to satisfy an ego of the 'worshipee') and then somehow you will 'experience' them. no, real love is unconditional and in the flesh presence. no redemption ritual necessary, you could reject me your whole life if you were my son, and I would throw you a welcome party in our 'heavenly home', which you never knew anyway, when you died. xenen would most certainly be welcome for the 'sin' of rejection.

how is that that I have more capacity for love than a supposedly infinitely merciful being?

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: wdog ]

Vanderzyden · 10-07-2002, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sciteach:
K yours is the real question that even we christians struggle with. Do you choose to have kids even if there is a chance that he will use his free will to reject a relationship with you? Most parents I know willingly took the risk, and why should God be any different? ... Hell is the natural consequence of a life chosen to be lived on your own terms, independent of any one elses views, and is the ultimate in being left on your own. Heaven is for those who choose to live in communion with the creator.....

Well said, sciteach. I had forgotten that analogy. Thanks for reminding us!

Vanderzyden

sandlewood · 10-07-2002, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
The humans he created were meant to fulfill a purpose. The good for humans is that which fulfills our intended purpose.

What would you say this purpose is? If we don�t know the purpose, how can we make choices towards it?

If god intended us to fulfill a purpose, then why give us free will? If I intend to build a bicycle to fulfill a purpose---to carry me from one place to another---then I don�t give it free choice. Instead, I build it so that it has no other choice than to carry me. If god did give free choice, I think it would make more sense to claim that the purpose involved us not all choosing the same way.

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Let me elaborate further. Humans have faults, but that is because they chose to have them.

So is the choice to have faults a fault itself?

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Their choice is to do evil instead of good.

We don�t choose to do evil. All we chose was not to believe in a god, and that by itself gets us a free ticket to Hell. Unless, of course, you define evil to be disbelief in the existence of the Christian god.

Vanderzyden · 10-07-2002, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silent Acorns:


God is so wonderful that it hurts to be with Him? [/b]

If you (1) reject him on the basis of a quick survey of "religious sayings", or (2) flatly deny his existence despite overwhelming evidence, then of course there is no way you will find him wonderful.

If, on the other hand, you were to take a genuine interest in seeking the truth about the way the world IS--instead of how you prefer it to be--then perhaps you would discover something about the Creator and what he is like. Then you could make an informed decision.

Vanderzyden

Demigawd · 10-07-2002, 03:41 PM

Translation of Van's stance:

I am privy to the inner mechinations of the Great Cosmic Conspiracy (tm). I'm going to Heaven, and you all are going to Hell. i rox!!!!11 u sux!!111

Mageth · 10-07-2002, 03:51 PM

If you (1) reject him on the basis of a quick survey of "religious sayings", or (2) flatly deny his existence despite overwhelming evidence, then of course there is no way you will find him wonderful.

Overwhelming evidence? I've looked for 40 years, and I'm totally underwhelmed by the "evidence."

If, on the other hand, you were to take a genuine interest in seeking the truth about the way the world IS--instead of how you prefer it to be--then perhaps you would discover something about the Creator and what he is like. Then you could make an informed decision.

Interestingly, that's exactly how I would describe my "spiritual" journey to atheism. I grew up in a Christian environment, with Christian parents. Always being a bit of a questioner, as an adult I sought "truth about the way the world IS" through science and other disciplines, rather than just in areas of how I would prefer the world to be (i.e. religion - life would be much easier for me if I could believe, trust me). In my searching, I discovered enough information to make an informed decision about what the creator is like - it doesn't exist. It's wishful thinking; an invention of man to explain the mysterious unknown and to provide an answer to all the "why" questions some people think are necessary.

I might be persuaded to change my mind if Van or any other believer would actually present that oft-mentioned but never provided "overwhelming evidence."

Instead, the more they talk, the more I'm convinced of the nonexistence of the xian god.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

Autonemesis · 10-07-2002, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
If you (1) reject him on the basis of a quick survey of "religious sayings", or (2) flatly deny his existence despite overwhelming evidence, then of course there is no way you will find him wonderful.

If only you'd read something other than (1) a few quick creationist dismissals or (2) stop flatly denying the wealth of evidence amassed over the past century and a half, you'd find evolution to have wonderful explanatory power.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]

Aerik Von · 10-07-2002, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:


I, for one, I appreciate your candor, Aerik. You are telling us that the idea of worship is repugnant.

This is perhaps the most common view among atheists: If God exists and he requires acknowledgement that he is Lord of All--that is, he demands my worship--then it seems that I would rather spend eternity apart from him.

Do the other atheists who read this agree?

Vanderzyden

...also to be honest. I still do not believe, I geuss it's a mixture of rejection and disbelief, I have seen little that would make me believe he actually exists, and less that would convince me to follow him...

southernhybrid · 10-07-2002, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Instead, the more they talk, the more I'm convinced of the nonexistence of the xian god.

Not only that but it makes me a little embarrassed that I actually believed this stuff at one point in my life.

K · 10-07-2002, 05:24 PM

Vanderzyden:

I do deny that free will exists but that has been discussed repeatedly in the philosopy forum and is irrelevant to this discussion.

The only thing that matters is whether God created us and whether He had a detailed knowledge of how we would act in the future. Free will or not, if God chose to make humans who He knew would be forced to suffer Hell for all eternity, then He did the unthinkable act of creating something just to make it suffer. I will try to put it another way to elucidate it.

Does God know that some individuals will make choices that will end up damning them to Hell? Does God go ahead and create those individuals anyway? If the answer to both of those questions is "yes", then there can be no other conclusion than that God creates individuals with faults that will end up damning them to Hell.

Also, you've again taken an assumption of mine that was tendered for the sake of argument and treated it as though it were one of my beliefs. I do not believe that people have faults (in a sin / right or wrong sense). Therefore, I do not believe there is a perfect standard against which we are to be measured. When I make these arguments, I start with generally accepted Christian assumptions and proceed to show how they lead to undesirable (for Christians) conclusions. There are very few of the assumptions that I actually agree with, so bringing them up to prove something is not helpful in making your case.

10-07-2002, 03:51 PM	#376
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	If you (1) reject him on the basis of a quick survey of "religious sayings", or (2) flatly deny his existence despite overwhelming evidence, then of course there is no way you will find him wonderful. Overwhelming evidence? I've looked for 40 years, and I'm totally underwhelmed by the "evidence." If, on the other hand, you were to take a genuine interest in seeking the truth about the way the world IS--instead of how you prefer it to be--then perhaps you would discover something about the Creator and what he is like. Then you could make an informed decision. Interestingly, that's exactly how I would describe my "spiritual" journey to atheism. I grew up in a Christian environment, with Christian parents. Always being a bit of a questioner, as an adult I sought "truth about the way the world IS" through science and other disciplines, rather than just in areas of how I would prefer the world to be (i.e. religion - life would be much easier for me if I could believe, trust me). In my searching, I discovered enough information to make an informed decision about what the creator is like - it doesn't exist. It's wishful thinking; an invention of man to explain the mysterious unknown and to provide an answer to all the "why" questions some people think are necessary. I might be persuaded to change my mind if Van or any other believer would actually present that oft-mentioned but never provided "overwhelming evidence." Instead, the more they talk, the more I'm convinced of the nonexistence of the xian god. [ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

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10-07-2002, 03:41 PM	#375
Demigawd Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place Posts: 2,254	Translation of Van's stance: I am privy to the inner mechinations of the Great Cosmic Conspiracy (tm). I'm going to Heaven, and you all are going to Hell. i rox!!!!11 u sux!!111

10-07-2002, 05:24 PM	#380
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Vanderzyden: I do deny that free will exists but that has been discussed repeatedly in the philosopy forum and is irrelevant to this discussion. The only thing that matters is whether God created us and whether He had a detailed knowledge of how we would act in the future. Free will or not, if God chose to make humans who He knew would be forced to suffer Hell for all eternity, then He did the unthinkable act of creating something just to make it suffer. I will try to put it another way to elucidate it. Does God know that some individuals will make choices that will end up damning them to Hell? Does God go ahead and create those individuals anyway? If the answer to both of those questions is "yes", then there can be no other conclusion than that God creates individuals with faults that will end up damning them to Hell. Also, you've again taken an assumption of mine that was tendered for the sake of argument and treated it as though it were one of my beliefs. I do not believe that people have faults (in a sin / right or wrong sense). Therefore, I do not believe there is a perfect standard against which we are to be measured. When I make these arguments, I start with generally accepted Christian assumptions and proceed to show how they lead to undesirable (for Christians) conclusions. There are very few of the assumptions that I actually agree with, so bringing them up to prove something is not helpful in making your case.

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