Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ted Hoffman · 03-26-2003, 06:19 AM

More: under The Post-resurrection scene in my site:

Quote:

Luke 24:36-44 has Jesus �proving� to his disciples that he is still a physical being (they expected him to be �spiritual�); he even asks for food and shows his scars and urges them to touch him. If we are to argue that Jesus had resurrected physically, and had wounds and felt hungry, we must also ask ourselves:

Since the clothes he was buried in were found in the tomb, where did he get the clothes he was wearing? Did God provide them? If God provided them how come Jesus was asking the disciples for food? Couldn�t God provide food too?

Did it (his asking for food and eating) mean that even Moses and Elijah (who stood beside him in the transfiguration) also eat in heaven? And if they do, what are the implications? What kind of food do they eat? Meat? Vegetables? Are there plants in heaven? Do they use tables? Plates? If one argues that Jesus ate the food to demonstrate that he was physical, and not for nourishment, one must also account for what happened to the food if it wasn�t digested.

In short, it�s ridiculous to believe that Jesus resurrected physically because it creates a �ridiculous� scenario. It is also an invalid �theory� because it leaves too many questions unanswered.

Writer@Large · 03-26-2003, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
Just a small point. Jesus was resurrected not brought back from the dead Lazarus style.

IronMonkey said it more eloquently, but since it's a response to my post I'll ask more directly: what's the difference?

--W@L

Mageth · 03-26-2003, 10:32 AM

"Why didn�t the Jews simply retrieve the body of Christ and present it to the people, perhaps on a cart wheeled through Jerusalem? It would have proven the apostles false and also killed Christianity before it could even really begin."

A minor point, perhaps, but IIRC wouldn't doing this violate one or more tenets of Hebrew Law? Weren't they supposed to bury the dead quickly, and leave them buried? Further, aren't there impurity laws against touching the dead?

happyboy · 03-26-2003, 11:12 AM

wow! post-tribulation christians get SUPERPOWERS! move over kitty pryde! stand aside, bruce banner! the REAL superbeings are coming, and they're FUNDIES!!!!

happyboy, somewhat let down that he won't get superpowers :boohoo:

Family Man · 03-26-2003, 03:46 PM

To be fair to Christians, I think that when they refer to the resurrection they mean both the raising from death and the ascension from heaven. Lazarus was only raised from the dead; Jesus (supposively) ascended to heaven as well. That's the difference.

Mageth · 03-26-2003, 03:48 PM

But Jesus wasn't the only character in the Bible described as ascending into heaven, so he's not unique in the Bible in that respect, nor in being physically raised from the dead.

Magus55 · 03-26-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
But Jesus wasn't the only character in the Bible described as ascending into heaven, so he's not unique in the Bible in that respect, nor in being physically raised from the dead.

Who else ascended to Heaven? The difference though is Jesus ascended himself to Heaven. And the only accounts of being raised from the dead i can think of were all done by Jesus.

Mageth · 03-26-2003, 04:34 PM

Who else ascended to Heaven?

You don't know your own holy book?

Well, supposedly Enoch and Elijah; there may have been others.

That brings up an interesting contradiction in the bible:

Genesis 5:24 - "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."

2 Kings 2:11 - "Then it came about as they were going along and talking, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven."

Hebrews 11:5 - "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God."

vs.

John 3:13 - "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man"

The difference though is Jesus ascended himself to Heaven.

Point out in scripture where Jesus is described as "ascending himself" into heaven. Meanwhile, I'll point out:

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Luke 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up,

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And the only accounts of being raised from the dead i can think of were all done by Jesus.

Again, you don't know your bible very well.

Dead people resurrected in the bible:

Elijah raised the widow's son (1 Kings 18:21).
Elisha raised the Shunammite's son (2 Kings 4:18-37).
A Moabite man cast hurriedly into Elisha's sepulchre whose body touched Elisha's bones (2 Kings 13:21).
Peter raised Tabitha (Dorcas) from the dead (Acts 9:36-41).
Maybe Paul, when he was stoned at Lystra. 'And having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city, and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe" (Acts 14:19-20).
Perhaps Eutychus, who fell to the ground as Paul preached (by Paul). "He sunk down with sleep, and fell from the third loft, and was taken up dead... And Paul went down and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him (Acts 20:9-10).

Family Man · 03-26-2003, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
But Jesus wasn't the only character in the Bible described as ascending into heaven, so he's not unique in the Bible in that respect, nor in being physically raised from the dead.

Hey, I'm not saying they're correct; I'm saying that is what they think. As Magus shows, they are so Jesus-centric that they really don't understand that Jesus's story is not all that unique.

Magus55 · 03-26-2003, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Point out in scripture where Jesus is described as "ascending himself" into heaven. Meanwhile, I'll point out:

Um Mageth. Jesus and God are the same person. When God ressurects Jesus, its basically Jesus ressurecting himself.

And no, i don't know everything about the Bible. I'm Jewish and grew up with the Torah primarily. I'm new to Messianic Judaism and have a lot more studying of the Bible to do. I'm not one of those people who can just type up a verse from the Bible on cue.

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03-26-2003, 10:32 AM	#13
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	"Why didn�t the Jews simply retrieve the body of Christ and present it to the people, perhaps on a cart wheeled through Jerusalem? It would have proven the apostles false and also killed Christianity before it could even really begin." A minor point, perhaps, but IIRC wouldn't doing this violate one or more tenets of Hebrew Law? Weren't they supposed to bury the dead quickly, and leave them buried? Further, aren't there impurity laws against touching the dead?

03-26-2003, 11:12 AM	#14
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	wow! post-tribulation christians get SUPERPOWERS! move over kitty pryde! stand aside, bruce banner! the REAL superbeings are coming, and they're FUNDIES!!!! happyboy, somewhat let down that he won't get superpowers :boohoo:

03-26-2003, 03:46 PM	#15
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	To be fair to Christians, I think that when they refer to the resurrection they mean both the raising from death and the ascension from heaven. Lazarus was only raised from the dead; Jesus (supposively) ascended to heaven as well. That's the difference.

03-26-2003, 03:48 PM	#16
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	But Jesus wasn't the only character in the Bible described as ascending into heaven, so he's not unique in the Bible in that respect, nor in being physically raised from the dead.

03-26-2003, 04:34 PM	#18
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Who else ascended to Heaven? You don't know your own holy book? Well, supposedly Enoch and Elijah; there may have been others. That brings up an interesting contradiction in the bible: Genesis 5:24 - "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." 2 Kings 2:11 - "Then it came about as they were going along and talking, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven." Hebrews 11:5 - "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God." vs. John 3:13 - "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man" The difference though is Jesus ascended himself to Heaven. Point out in scripture where Jesus is described as "ascending himself" into heaven. Meanwhile, I'll point out: Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Luke 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And the only accounts of being raised from the dead i can think of were all done by Jesus. Again, you don't know your bible very well. Dead people resurrected in the bible: Elijah raised the widow's son (1 Kings 18:21). Elisha raised the Shunammite's son (2 Kings 4:18-37). A Moabite man cast hurriedly into Elisha's sepulchre whose body touched Elisha's bones (2 Kings 13:21). Peter raised Tabitha (Dorcas) from the dead (Acts 9:36-41). Maybe Paul, when he was stoned at Lystra. 'And having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city, and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe" (Acts 14:19-20). Perhaps Eutychus, who fell to the ground as Paul preached (by Paul). "He sunk down with sleep, and fell from the third loft, and was taken up dead... And Paul went down and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him (Acts 20:9-10).

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