Freethought & Rationalism Archive

shome42 · 07-31-2003, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
Here I will quote Aquinas to clear up any confusion, or false hope you may have.

"Unbelief may be taken in two ways: first, by way of pure negation, so that a man be called an unbeliever, merely because he has not the faith. Secondly, unbelief may be taken by way of opposition to the faith; in which sense a man refuses to hear the faith, or despises it, according to Is. 53:1: "Who hath believed our report?" It is this that completes the notion of unbelief, and it is in this sense that unbelief is a sin.

If, however, we take it by way of pure negation, as we find it in those who have heard nothing about the faith, it bears the character, not of sin, but of punishment, because such like ignorance of Divine things is a result of the sin of our first parent. If such like unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without faith, but not on account of their sin of unbelief. Hence Our Lord said (Jn. 15:22) "If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin"; which Augustine expounds (Tract. lxxxix in Joan.) as "referring to the sin whereby they believed not in Christ."

Peace,
SOTC

Well, if God would send me to hell for not believing in him, despite the fact he's never talked to me, made himself known to me, or given me so much as a birthday card, he's a real piece of shit...a real sadistic bastard that would probably throw me in to hell regardless of what I do.

EDIT:

God, I'm announcing right now...Please, take 2 seconds out of your busy day to speak to me. You can call, just talk in a booming voice from the clouds, or hell, even make a personal visit if you can squeeze it into your schedule...if you do any of these things, I will loyally serve you for the rest of my life, I swear.

Now please, take 2 seconds to save one of your children!

Gawdawful · 07-31-2003, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
It seems you answer your own question.

No I didn't and you still haven't answered it yet. You tapped danced all around it, "the devil's in the details" as you have alluded.

I repeat, backed up by shome42's posts:

Quote:

Explain further. I've heard this Satan tricking people into sinning thing for most of my life, explain why that is not correct.

Warren in Oklahoma

SignOfTheCross · 07-31-2003, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shome42
Well, if God would send me to hell for not believing in him, despite the fact he's never talked to me, made himself known to me, or given me so much as a birthday card, he's a real piece of shit...a real sadistic bastard that would probably throw me in to hell regardless of what I do.

God reveals Himself to those who seek Him. If you choose not to accept Christ, your condemnation is deserved.

EDIT:

Quote:

God, I'm announcing right now...Please, take 2 seconds out of your busy day to speak to me. You can call, just talk in a booming voice from the clouds, or hell, even make a personal visit if you can squeeze it into your schedule...if you do any of these things, I will loyally serve you for the rest of my life, I swear.

Now please, take 2 seconds to save one of your children!

Geez, just ask Him.

Peace,
SOTC

SignOfTheCross · 07-31-2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by warrenly
No I didn't and you still haven't answered it yet. You tapped danced all around it, "the devil's in the details" as you have alluded.

I repeat, backed up by shome42's posts:

Warren in Oklahoma

The devil can trick us, but not into sinning. Once again, the original poster was under the impression that if Satan tricks us into sinning we are void of all fault, since we can blame it on the devil. Not true, if Satan tricks us into committing a sin without knowledge of it, we have not committed a sin.

Peace,
SOTC

Calzaer · 07-31-2003, 11:55 PM

Quote:

us if one has sinned without knowing they have sinned, God will not hold them responsible for the sin.

So why did God kick Adam and Eve out of Eden, if they couldn't have known that disobeying God was bad until AFTER they ate the apple?

shome42 · 08-01-2003, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
The devil can trick us, but not into sinning

What are you talking about?! How can you say the devil can't trick us into sinning?

You already said that the devil tricks people into being atheist. Well, as a result of being tricked into atheism, I don't go to church anymore and I don't worship God.

I've been tricked into breaking 2 commandments.

markfiend · 08-01-2003, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
Why do you assume state 1 would not apply? I believe this statement to be false.

Uh. Do you not know what "non-zero chance" means?

Quote:

...It is in our nature to choose evil over good...

It's great to meet a Christian with such faith in human nature.

SignOfTheCross · 08-01-2003, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calzaer
So why did God kick Adam and Eve out of Eden, if they couldn't have known that disobeying God was bad until AFTER they ate the apple?

They knew it was a sin.

Peace,
SOTC

markfiend · 08-01-2003, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
They knew it was a sin.

Peace,
SOTC

How? It was the tree of knowledge of good and evil, so presumably before eating they had no such knowledge.

SignOfTheCross · 08-01-2003, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shome42
What are you talking about?! How can you say the devil can't trick us into sinning?

You already said that the devil tricks people into being atheist. Well, as a result of being tricked into atheism, I don't go to church anymore and I don't worship God.

I've been tricked into breaking 2 commandments.

The devil can deceive us, tempt us, anything really, but he and nothing he does can MAKE you sin. Sin is ALWAYS a conscious decision made on our behalf to do wrong. It may be that you have been tricked into believing God does not exist, but unbelief in itself is not a sin.

Say for example, Satan purposely spikes your drink, you get really wasted and have sex waking up the next with no recollection of what happened. Satan has tricked you into sinning and you can't be held responsible for something you had no control over. On the other hand, even if your drink had been spiked yet you were able to make a conscious decision to have sex with full knowledge it was wrong, you have sinned.

Do you understand the point I am trying to make?

Peace,
SOTC

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