Toto

Welcome to the boards, Tomije. You are, or course, absolutely right.

ohwilleke

Welcome aboard tomije.

gallo

Tomije,

I am actually quite aware our country is not founded on Christian principles. I'm just developing a troll to use on the ignorant religious right who continue to claim that it is so. Just a little piece to yank their chains a bit. However, it may also be true that through an awareness of European history and the history of the colonies that the founding fathers were motivated to avoid problems caused by religioius dissension. It is also true that there were several state religions established in the various colonies. The founding fathers certainly recognized the impossibility of selecting one of these to serve as the established state religion. How would that have been determined? To select one would have meant the certain failure of the ratification of the new Constitution.

Maybe more than a handful. I have seen several estimates of the numbers of Christians in America at the time of the Revolution. One was from 8% to 10%. Marvin Frankel, a former federal judge and student of the First Amendment, say about 1 in 8 (13%), but maybe as low as 1 in 20 (5%). Moreover, the recognition of innate rights was a humanist concept. While modern Americans may not consider the idea as anti-Christian, it certainly doesn't have its origin in Christianity. The Declaration of Independence speaking of Nature and Nature's God is typically humanistic. And of course, the inalienable right to "life, liberty and ..." is straight from Locke.

Close. Adams (John) was a Unitarian, as was his son (John Q). However, none of the first 6 Presidents were Christian. Jefferson claimed to have no religious affiliation. Washington, Madison and Monroe were nominally Episcopalian (Anglican), but all were from Virginia where the state religion was Episcopalian and the elected vestrymen of the local church were, in effect, the local government. To be active in politics was to be elected a vestryman. Monroe was a vehement anti-cleric. Of course, Franklin as well as Hamilton, John Jay, and Paine were deists.

Yes, it actually is a meaningless debate. I continue to ask fundamentalist christians to support from the Bible the assertion that the US was founded on Christian principles. At best, they come up with some verse supporting justice. When asked for the Biblical source of "Nature and Nature's God," or self-evident truth, the equality of all mankind, and especially, the Biblical principles of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I also ask for the Biblical justification for just powers of government being derived from the consent of the governed.

So I thought that I could jog a fundy or two into thinking before speaking by claiming that some of the motivating principles of our country's foundation do indeed come from Christianity, but not as a statement of principles, but as an effort to avoid them.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: gallo ]</p>

Amulet

And don't forget that George Washington said that this nation is in no way founded on the Christian Bible!

gallo

From the Treaty of Tripoli, negotiated by Joel Barlow, who had served as chaplain to the Continental Army under Washington (appointed by him), and appointed US Consul General to Algiers (by Washington). One assumes that Washington was aware of the course of the negotiations and the proposed text of the Treaty. However, the treaty was concluded during the administration of John Adams, who forwarded it to the Senate with the following cover:
The Senate ratified the treaty without a single dissenting vote on June 7, 1797 and it was signed by Adams on June 10, 1797.

In article 11 it states:

lpetrich

In reference to Tomjie's comments, I think that it's unlikely that our Founding Fathers had known much about Islam. However, they were familiar with Greek and Roman paganism, and Toms Jefferson and Paine made the rather obvious comparison of the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ to the numerous divine impregnations and miraculous births of pagan mythology.

Tomije

First off, kudos to Gallo. Quite right, generally. You might be interested to know that I grew up in one of those Episcopalian Churches that dear old GW was rumored to be a vestry member of. We had a plaque, I don't know if we had any proof...

But moving on, lpetrich, I have to disagree. Our Founding Fathers knew plenty about Islam. It had been around for 1000 thousand years, and had led to a series of squabbles called the Crusades.

If Jefferson and Paine did these things, they weren't doing anything that 1st century Christians did. But I doubt they had Mithras in mind.

From the 7th century on, Islam was a huge force, and it was still one in the 17th (and is still now, of course). I have a hard time believing men who loved to learn didn't know anything about a 1000 year old religion. I don't think I ever claimed it was a big motivating factor--but it was in the back of their minds.

Of course, we aren't talking about idealized philosophical heroes here. In the back of Franklin's mind was a way to crush his competitors in the newspaper biz, and how to get drunk. Jefferson was trying to decide which slave to rape that day, maybe. In any case, Christianity, as it is distilled and taught--not a major factor.

Richiyaado

Hello All,

I posted the following a couple of months ago in another thread. I thought it might be worth repeating here.

I'm no scholar, but my understanding of this issue is that, while none of the founding fathers were opposed to Christianity, they were all strong advocates of a secular nation-state. I think this fact stands in stark contrast to the Religious Right's contention that the U.S. was established as some sort of Christian nation. In fact, the reason the wall of separation was erected was to prevent the many varieties of sectarian tyranny which arose in Europe, as well as in America during the Puritan era. Since the founding fathers were aware of this, they took pains to insure that no such tyranny would arise in the republic they created.

Some may wish to argue that George Washington was a Christian. I think the evidence suggests that he was really more of a Deist, as were the next 4 Presidents who followed him in that office.

My favorite founding father, Benjamin Franklin, dabbled with atheism as a youth, but also adopted a non-doctrinaire sort of Deism as a young man. His writings clearly show that he never substantially departed from that position over the course of his long, extraordinary life.

Does any of this mean we should all become Deists, just because so many of our founding fathers were? Of course not. But, I do think it means we should be very careful about where we are heading as a Nation and what it means to be patriotic. I fear we are losing sight of the sort of religious tolerance our founding fathers hoped to establish. In a time as troubling as ours, many people seem to think one can't be a patriotic American without holding to some sort of strong theistic belief. Or that one must pass some sort of religious test to hold public office— or even to qualify as a responsible citizen.

Frankly, I doubt whether the founders would approve of this trend.

MOJO-JOJO

Er...don't drink beer, cuss, or think naughty thoughts about your neighbor's wife

Tomije

This is what makes the Bible fun:

Mojo-jojo (nice Cartoon Network reference) suggested (I imagine) somewhat jokingly, that these three things are important Christian traits:

Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad for any of us. But only 1 out of 3 for Noah, the man who saved humanity? That's rather poor, in my mind. Plus, Noah did some borderline incestuous things. Gross.

Of course, once you get started talking about the Old Testament, you have to deal with the talking snakes, and real life, walking, talking God who kept showing up, invited or not.

Sounds plausible.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Tomije ]</p>