Calzaer

happyboy:
Apology accepted.

I promise I won't make any fantastical-type claims until I'm ready to prove them in lab conditions (preferably for Randi's money).

Emotional:
If science does it for you, feel free. I chose to assume facts-not-in-evidence (ie, an intelligent cause) and work from there. Oh, and the answer to all your questions about Venus, Kabbalah, etc, is "Yes."

In a way, one could almost (repeat: ALMOST) say that we worship nothing more and nothing less than the forces that bind the natural world together (which might mean we almost worship gravity, I suppose).

But, hey, as soon as they teach me how to make bread for 5k people out of two loaves, I'll let you know.

Aquila ka Hecate

What I actually said was:
By which I meant that I found most wiccans less than honest, yes-and incidentally most theists.

Sometimes I can be less than clearmyself though, for which I apologise!

However,I was a wiccan priestess for many years Calzaer,and I've heard the claims myself.

Calzaer

That's odd. What degree?

Aquila ka Hecate

HPS-3rd Gardnerian.
Odd? My being an ex-priestess or something alse?

Calzaer

The claims about healing and such.

Then again, I suppose I *wouldn't* have heard such things if they're Gardnerian secrets. But I'd've thought Buckland might have slipped some of that into his Big Blue Book. As long as he's publishing other peoples' rituals and all.. Oh well.

emotional

You're a creationist? "Intelligent cause" means a creator. You can't believe in an intelligent cause and in evolution both. Evolution is a non-intelligent process.



So experience determines reality? Does that mean the new worlds opened to people by LSD are real too?

In my book, the only arbiter for truth - for objective reality - is objective natural evidence. As far as I'm concerned, the supernatural can't exist.



You seem to worship a lot more than that. Gods and Goddesses, for example. I have no problem with nature-worship, I just don't think it can be mixed with theistic concepts. It's one thing to adore the Sun and the Moon, but it's a totally different thing to believe a mixture of herbs and potions could bring you luck (they can't possibly).

I'll believe it when the problem of mass hunger in Africa is solved.

Nowhere357

Hi Feather.

People ARE primitive. Not much difference between the stone age man and the modern man, physically. We are like toddlers with guns and bombs. We like to think we are advanced, but really we have a long way to go.

People (even the stupidest), however, are NOT unthinking, they do not deserve to be tortured, and I'm pretty sure that YOU are a people, too.

Re your post, you seem to lack empathy, and seem to have a superiority complex. Of course I don't know you, and am only responding to what I read here, and hope I'm taking this out of context or something.

Nowhere357

This is a pretty good thread, very beneficial towards understanding.

"Why is it that belief in the occult persists?"

IMO it helps to realize that we have two ways of reaching "understanding" or the feeling that we know something. There is "rational" understanding, and "intuitive" understanding. Right brain and left brain, I guess.

If someone holds an intuitive belief, then logic has little power to change that. If someone holds a rational belief, then intuition has little power to change that.

The concept of yin/yang captures this relationship extremely well. Once I realized this, it became much easier to understand and deal with people and their beliefs, in general.

Steve K

My 2 cents, no new material...

It seems to me that the occult persists because of the very nature of its mystery and emotional connection. If you want to actually know about the universe, science textbooks can explain it in detail.

Let's say I want mystery and wonder. I pick up a telescope and look up into the sky on a clear night - I see the rings of Saturn or moons of Jupiter. Or I pick up a microscope and examine blood cells. Ultimately, from this I gain information and, if I test a hypothesis using the scientific method, a theory. I can check references to see if other scientists have come to same conclusion.

With the occult, references and the scientific method cease to be meaningful. So what if everyone gets different results? So what if nobody knows what this means? It's not about gaining hard and fast scientific knowledge, it's about an experience -- An experience which some people find equally or more potent than scientific work.

So perhaps the question should be -- why does chanting incantations in a room lit with candles and filled with incense (or whatever) cause this kind of connection (emotional response)?

- Steve

emotional

So why go occult? You can have a potent, meaningful experience without relinquishing scientific knowledge and downsliding into the supernatural mysteries. Science itself bores me stiff, but the findings of science, when I rework them into a system of poetry and ceremony, are simply awesome. I liked the poetry and ceremony in religion, I just don't like having to slide into lunacy (belief in the occult). Ideally, the most sensible religion would be that which merges the potent force of religion with the real-world correctness of naturalism/materialism.

The air of secrecy and sorcery and fulfillment of High Purpose does it. When you make incantations, you feel in control, you feel like you're channelling positive energies (to use a New-Ageism). It's a religion thing, I can't quite explain it, but it's very powerful.