l-bow

Why should all atheists have a common ground? We simply don't have all the facts in. Even in the case of Jesus, atheists disagree on whether he really existed or not (I think he existed, but he was probably more like the Barabbas character than the peaceful messiah the NT portrays. Did you know Barabba's name was Jesus? Jesus Barabbas, bar-abbas meaning son of the father. Hmmm...). And Finkelstein isn't a minimalist! He accepts that David is real. But he thinks Judah and Israel were always separate and that David was at most a minor chieftan. I read ihs book. It's aimed at a lay audience. That's why it isn't written like a scholarly article.

King Arthur

Hmm... You're not going to get "all the facts" if you read books written for a "lay audience" that have no footnotes to check the claims. Read Dever. His is a book for laymen which provides footnotes with which to follow up on his claims. Perhaps then you will get more of the facts.

No. He is a revisionist. However, he has done a complete about-face from his earlier convictions and sides closer with the minimalists inspite of a lack of evidence for such a change.

Jayhawker Soule

Perhaps you would document this "complete about-face from his earlier convictions" and show where he "sides closer with the minimalists inspite of a lack of evidence for such a change". Please feel no need to quote Finkelstein at length. A few core position statements with a list of appropriate footnotes will more than suffice.

l-bow

KA,

Why did you snip out alot of what I said? When I said that all the facts are not in, I was talking about the general debate over Israel's history, not just the information in Finkelstein's book. Hell, maybe when more facts come in, the biblical literalists will be vindicated! Just imagine that, the fundamentalists being right after all!No, I haven't read Dever's book. I've skimmed through Dever's review of Finkelstein's book. And BTW, Finkelstein DOES include a bibliography in his book, so you can check for yourself his sources. One more thing: Finkelstein mentions the Tel Dan inscription in his book, and on this basis concludes that the minimalists are wrong on this count.

Jayhawker Soule

BTW, thanks for the link.

Radcliffe Emerson

This is a quote about Prof. Dever:

"Unlike most defenders of “the Bible as history”, Professor Dever comes to the data with no religious predispositions. He announces himself as a secular humanist who has rejected the fundamentalist Christianity in which he was raised and does not regard his adult conversion to Judaism as having religious significance."

Judasim is a religion, how can conversion have no significance? It sounds to me like a smokescreen to discount the fact he is indeed providing his opinions strictly from a pro-Judaism religious standpoint, at least to me.

King Arthur

I figured someone would bring this irrelevant crap up.

Dever says in his book:

"I also converted to Judaism during this period, at least nominally - although I am not a theist, and indeed remain a secular humanist. But the Jewish tradition suits me in many ways."

In other words, Dever became a Jew because he enjoys that kind of social life. He is an atheist and no more biased than any other.

BTW, I saw your other post.

All I have to say is how exactly would you know whether I was a real scholar or an "arm-chair" archaeologist? Do you have the background to tell the difference?

Read and learn. Then you will.

Toto

I am willing to bet that Dever's conversion was not due to Woody Allen movies or chicken soup. I suspect that he was impressed with the tradition and morality in Judaism, and I also suspect that he started with or adopted a pro-Israeli stance. Since the minimalists appear to use history to undermine the legitimacy of the state of Israel, he may have a motive for opposing them for that reason. Nothing to do with theism.

Vorkosigan

Any of you have access to the NYTimes? There's an article with an interview of Dever discussing his conversion. August 4, 2001, is the cite I have.

Vorkosigan

Toto

You can buy it from their archive for $2.95