Jesse

I know, but I wanted to know if he would feel differently if it was by email.

Volker.Doormann

Oh yes. If the light is direct ON if you switch the light knob, it is a proof, that this is DC (Direct Current); if not it is AC~. (!)

Jesse, I think it drops to absurd. I do not understand your thoughts. There must be an intelligent decision about matching. But you have no idea, who that is. You can calc significance values of 10^-150 but you did not say who that is.
I understand nothing. I can run a 1000 birthdates and can read the output for each one, without initially telling you which was which, but I don’t see any reason in that. No. Why don’t you order this outputs not from a professional astro service for example astro.com and let read it by your wife?

Jesse, I am not an object of testing. If you have doubts in astrology, make your checks on the matter, not on persons. If you are able to decide whether a report about you is correct or not, and it differs from other reports with other data from the same year it is your fun and freedom.

(?)

Volker

ps418

In other words, save your breath, you astrology skeptics. As before, Volker hasn't the slightest interest in testing his method or answering any of your skeptical questions.

I admire your honesty.

Patrick

Jesse

Jesse:
.. The point is, even if people's evaluations of personality traits in themselves or others are not perfectly consistent, they should at least be slightly different than random chance, and that's all you need for these sorts of statistical studies.

Volker.Doormann:
I do not understand your thoughts. There must be an intelligent decision about matching. But you have no idea, who that is. You can calc significance values of 10^-150 but you did not say who that is.

I don't understand your question--who what is? Are you objecting that you don't know which profile actually describes your birthday? True, but the person doing the experiment knows, and he can see if the one you picked actually matches your birthday.

Instead of profiles being based on birthdays, let's say they were based on your friend's descriptions of you. If you were given five personality descriptions, one of which was a friend's description of you, while the other five were descriptions written about other people, don't you think there's a better-than-random-chance probability you'd be able to pick out which profile was written about you, even if you weren't told in advance? If astrology actually works, why shouldn't the stars and planets be like a "friend" whose description of you is more likely to be selected by you as accurate than some other random description?

Again, Volker, you mentioned the study by Edgar Wunder, which worked exactly in this way. The astrologer would write profiles of different birthdates, and the subject would pick which profile best matched him, and then the experimenter would see if that was actually the profile that had been based on the subject's birthday. It seems to me you are simply being inconsistent if you say Wunder's study is valid evidence of astrology but then say it would be "worthless" to do exactly the same kind of study using your own software. If you think there is an important difference between Wunder's study and the kind of test I am proposing, please explain it.

Jesse:
If I gave you three or four different birthdates, would you be willing to read the output of your program for each one, without initially telling me which was which?

Volker.Doormann:
I understand nothing. I can run a 1000 birthdates and can read the output for each one, without initially telling you which was which, but I don’t see any reason in that.

Because it would remove the possibility of bias, either for or against astrology, on my part. Also because I'm asking politely, so even if you don't see the point, as long as it would not take much effort on your part to use the software to come up with profiles, it would be nice of you to honor that request. If your software doesn't output complete profiles and it would take you a while to write each one up by hand, then it's more understandable if you don't want to.

Volker.Doormann:
Why don’t you order this outputs not from a professional astro service for example astro.com and let read it by your wife?

Would it cost money to get profiles from astro.com?

Volker.Doormann:
Jesse, I am not an object of testing. If you have doubts in astrology, make your checks on the matter, not on persons.

I don't understand what you mean--the only way to "check" astrology in a scientifically meaningful way is to see how accurate it is at predicting the personalities/lives of "persons" in blind tests. That's my understanding of what the Wunder test did, for example--is your understanding different?

Muad'Dib

Hi Volker,

If you don't mind, I'd like to go back to an earlier reply on page 1, and ask some general questions.

My question earlier was concerning the methodology of astrology: is it about who does it, or can anyone do it if they do it properly?

More specifically, how do the methods of the Jewish astrologers you mention compare to the methods of the ancient Babylonians, Egyptians, Mayans, Chinese, and Arabs, most (if not all) of whom were unaware of Kabbalistic Jewish texts like the Sefir Yetzirah you mentioned? Are they all equally good? Or are the Jewish methods somehow superior, and if so why?

What heavenly bodies are relevant to astrology in general? Is it just the 12 constellations plus the planets? Are all nine planets in the solar system relevant?

Also, to what extent does astronomy inform astrology--that is, does the discovery of new stars affect astrological readings? Would dark matter influence the way you read someone? Do black holes play a role at all? Or is it the "knowledge of the full spectrum of human psyche (Unabomber, Charles Manson, Tourette syndrom guys, Losers, genies, musicians, dreamers, introverted sentimental, etc.)" that proves to be more important than improvements in our knowledge of the heavens?

Thanks,
Muad'Dib

Volker.Doormann

Yes, I understand.Correct. Its alright. The simple thing is, I have no intention to be involved in such test. In short, Jesse. I can submit to you four chart interpretations in German language from four different valid birth datas (I wish to see all birth certificates as .jpg (!) ) of real persons you know personally, of your choice. OK? AFAIK not for a short profile (online). Yes for a full profile.

Volker

Sorry Volker, I accidentally edited your post when I meant to reply, but I fixed it now--Jesse

Volker.Doormann

Hi Muad'Dib,

that are a lot of questions. For most of them you can find answers in each textbook of astrology. But I think not for all.

Each one, who can perceive the psychic dimension in the psyche of humans, can learn to connect this dimensions with rational astronomical symbols.

It is not known to me what quality the astrology was about, the Jews or other ancient people have practice. I do know only, that they have proper knowledge of astrology regarding the planets, moon, sun its aspects, and the zodiac. I would say, that because of the intensive research in the field of astrology in the last century there was a big development in astrology next to a lot of nonsense written in colorful books. The keypoint is IMHO the grows of understanding of the sense of all that life and death, by the work of many individuals (C.G. Jung, Martin Schulman, Betty Lundsted, Steven Arroyo, and some thousand more).

BTW. To interpret the sings of time, astrology is only one, maybe the best tool, but you can interpret also coffee, bones, cards, and much more other symbols, because these symbols are in harmony with the age of time, they all exhibit the same meaning.

Relevant in astrology are to my knowledge: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptun, Pluto, 12 astrological houses aligned to the sky directions, the presence of these planets in this houses, the 12 houses the sun is running from the spring equinox through these houses (called zodiac), the four elements Fire (Plasma), Air, Water, Earth. Three qualities as cardinal, fixed and mutable. The moon's node on the ecliptic, the presence of planets in the four quadrants (west above horizon, west below horizon, etc.) The angle aspects of planets (0°, 30°, 45°, 60°, 90°, 120°, 135°, 150°, 180°). The relation of harmonic aspects to disharmonic aspects. The number of aspects. The number of aspects in a house. The position of a planet in house. Lack of aspects. And the relation of all this as a plot of no contradiction in hole, but in part. There are may some more, but this is standard and is related to about 1000+ discrete meanings describing a special mode of the human psyche.

It is not the mass of the bodies on the sky, which have any meaning. As the bodies all have a relation of 3:2 from Kepler's law between the potency of the radius and the time (no mass) it is also, that all bodies in our solar system have harmonic relations like the 3:2 frequency harmony of Pluto and Neptune, and the configuration of the planetary positions on the 2 Pi circle relating to the horizon of the birthplace is valid (time of day). You can observe this by yourself, if in August around 27th 2003, when the angles of the planets (Mars, Uranus Sun) are showing a time for earthquake, terror and similar crashes on our earth. In midnight Mars is in the south with Uranus, while some other objects are in Nadir. The new discovered planet Quaoar may be of interest, but I have no experience yet with that object running ahead of Pluto very slowly.

Hope that helps.

Volker

Jesse

Volker.Doormann:
Its alright. The simple thing is, I have no intention to be involved in such test.

So you admit that your previous objections about the results of such a test being meaningless were specious? Anyway, fair enough if you don't want to participate--I guess from your description below it'd take some time to translate them into english, so as I said I don't blame you for not wanting to do it if it isn't something you could just get out of the computer in a few seconds.

Volker.Doormann:
In short, Jesse. I can submit to you four chart interpretations in German language from four different valid birth datas (I wish to see all birth certificates as .jpg (!) ) of real persons you know personally, of your choice. OK?

I don't speak German so it wouldn't be very useful to me, nor could I easily get anyone's birth certificate (although my own birthday is listed on anybirthday.com). Thanks anyway though.

Jesse:
Would it cost money to get profiles from astro.com?

Volker.Doormann:
AFAIK not for a short profile (online). Yes for a full profile.

OK, if anyone still wants to do this test they can post three or four dates and I'll post the profiles in random order. BTW Volker, have you ever checked some of the profiles on astro.com to see if they're not too far off from your own interpretations?

Lobstrosity

I'll play along:

1) 7/19/79 @ 5:07 PM, White Plains, NY

2) 10/26/78 @ 8:22 PM, Salt Lake City, UT

3) 3/5/77 @ 2:15 AM, Kamuela, HI

4) 1/8/76 @ 4:16 PM, San Jose, CA

Volker.Doormann

I think there is a way to tanslate it to English. The certifcate is a must. I must be shure that the birth data are correct. I have read some few. They are some different, but nevertheless excellent. The author is Liz Greene. She is an expert in Interpretation and Dr. Alois Treindl is physicist and has written the interpretation software inclusice the hole astronomical algorithm with NASA standard. I would say, that my interpretation is short, very honest (not smart) and direct, their interpretation is long and detailed in all aspects of the life of the born being. My interpretation belongs to prior lifes and its Karma and the job having one in this life as target, their intepretation belongs to the psyche of the character and how that can refined to master this life with a better knowledge of the own character. In any case there is a general interpretation of the key aspects of the individual character through the great number of specific elements in each individual chart.

Volker