Silent Dave

I am holding a gun to your head. If you don't give me a million dollars, I will shoot you. If you refuse, just remember that you have the opportunity to save your life; you turned it down and rejected my gift of not shooting you. It was your own choice.

I see. You think reality should be as you would like it to be.




Is that a joke? Have you actually READ the gospels?

And as Hedwig said, you didnt' answer the question. If you ended up in the Islamic hell, would you still believe that Christianity is true?


Dave

Christian

God Himself telling me that I was wrong would do it.

Dying and finding out I was wrong would do it, but I assume you are talking about something in our current experience.

Can't really think of anything else. Complete silence from God would be incredibly difficult to endure, although I don't think even that would destroy the cumulative realities of the past 29 years. And I've spoken to other Christians who have endured who have endured lengthy "dry" times like that. It can be done.

To put it into perspective, what would it take to convince you that your spouse doesn't actually exist? There may be some evidence that you could theoretically conceive of that would accomplish that, but the idea of something you live with and experience every day and continue to experience is an illusion would be a difficult one to endorse. I'm more likely to be convinced that my wife does not exist than I am to be convinced that Jesus is not alive today.

If I were subjected to physical torture or painful death for being a Christian (as thousands are just a few miles north of this computer) I would very much like to think I could hold up and not deny Christ. Even in the worst case, though, where I fail utterly and deny Christ under torture, it would be purely external. I would still know that God really does exist.

Respectfully,

Christian

Rhea

Magus, thank you for answering. Although you didn't really understand the question. But thank you for trying.

If you're interested in answering the actual question, it wasn't about _renouncing_ Your Lord Jesus Christ. It was about finding out it wasn't true based on whatever makes you believe it _is_ true now.

For example. If the reason you worship JC now is that the Bible is true, would you then find yourself adrift and faithless if the bible was PROVEN to be untrue? And if so (I mean, I assume that you would have a major crisis if the bible was PROVEN untrue) what kind of proof would be required for you to think the bible was untrue.

Jesus' body?
An eyewitness ability to see back in time?


I'm just curious, dude, I'm not satan testing you.

Silent Dave

Christian, your spouse is (I assume) perceivable with your five physical senses. God is not. How, then, do you claim that denying the existence of God is analogous to denying the existence of your wife?


Dave

Philosoft

This is a joke, right?

Rhea

Thanks Christian.

Yes, I was wondering about "in our current experience".

Thanks for your answer.

Magus55

Yes you're a right they would, although according to the Quran, Allah will be nice to some of the Jews and let them off, even though they weren't islamic ( oh yeah, did i forget to mention Allah is subjective and even though he wants you to do works to please him - as if humans can actually please a holy God - that he picks and chooses who goes to Heaven and Hell despite whether they followed him or not? An orthodox Islam could end up in Hell and a Yahweh worshipping Jew could end up in Heaven... go go universal justice. Nice to know Jesus isn't subjective and told us the only way to be saved. Our God is universally just and righteous, Allah isn't).

Rhea

Magus. The question. Answer the question

You sure do know how to dodge a topic! Look, if you don't feel like answering, go post in your own threads. I've got a question, here, you know?

Magus55

I answered someone elses question first, excuse me for not rushing to your beckon call?

If what parts of the Bible were proven untrue? Proving that some of the parts aren't to be taken literally wouldn't do it.
Coming up with Jesus' actual body may, but 1) don't see how anyone could prove it was his body and 2) He died 2000 years ago and archaeologists are still baffeled trying to find his body, i would think they should have found at least some evidence leading to it by now, if not the complete body. My opinion is they will never ever find the body because it doesn't exist since Jesus is alive.

Christian

Your welcome, Rhea.

Philosoft,

I thought the question was about Christianity being wrong, not merely theism. I can see how my answer would have been confusing if you didn't realize that.

SD,

Basically because I interact with God daily, just as I interact with my wife daily. God can be perceived in any way He cares to be, including the five senses. Most of what I am talking about is inward and subjective, and therefore probably not very convincing to you depite being real to me. But I see God's fingerprints all over my life in outward ways too. Circumstances that seem beyond coincidence, especially when considered cumulatively. That sort of thing. In some ways nature itself. But much more frequently inward direction and thoughts and circumstances beyond coincidence.

But the bottom line is that you either love God or you don't (or perhaps you love the ideas of the benefits of God without truly longing for and loving God Himself.) And you know if you love God. Love is a difficult thing to explain, but it is very real.

To expand on the wife analogy: I love my wife. "Love for my wife" is not something that can be perceived by my five senses, but it is not only real, it is evidence of its object (my wife herself). If my wife *poof* disappeared forever tomorrow and I could no longer perceive her with my five senses, my love for her would linger on as perhaps the strongest evidence (to me) that she had once existed.

If God does not exist, I would not only have to explain my interactions with Him ... I would have to explain my dynamic longing for and love for God. Which is even greater than my longing for and love for my wife.

Again, I don't expect my inward experiences to be compelling to anyone else. But it should not be suprising that they are compelling to me, since I am the one experiencing them.

Respectfully,

Christian