Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PopeInTheWoods · 03-19-2003, 10:24 AM

70847590035853422668716681178942

My last vestiges of Roman Catholicism came up with that one. If it's right, I'll re-convert.

Andy

fishbulb · 03-19-2003, 01:14 PM

The 32-digit number gimmick is clever enough, but I don't really expect that it will satisfy your inquisitors. The responses here seem to bear that out.

I would suggest an alternative response: tell your missionary that you cannot choose what you believe. Your beliefs follow from the conclusions you draw from the evidence you have been given. If you find convincing evidence of the existence of God, you will come to believe in God. If you do not, you won't. Because of the nature of the claims made about God, it is hard to know in advance what would consitute convincing evidence, so you cannot make specific or exclusive demands. Tell them that, if your beliefs are wrong, you are willing to accept the consequences because you know you have used your best judgement and you cannot expect yourself to do any more.

It seems to me that some proselatyzing Christians may try to convert you because they are genuinely concerned for your welfare. They may believe that your soul is in danger if you don't believe in their God. Others simply seem to feel angered or threatened by your lack of belief in their faith. Their reactions to this speech should separate one group from the other.

xian · 03-19-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbulb
The 32-digit number gimmick is clever enough, but I don't really expect that it will satisfy your inquisitors. The responses here seem to bear that out.

I would suggest an alternative response: tell your missionary that you cannot choose what you believe. Your beliefs follow from the conclusions you draw from the evidence you have been given. If you find convincing evidence of the existence of God, you will come to believe in God. If you do not, you won't. Because of the nature of the claims made about God, it is hard to know in advance what would consitute convincing evidence, so you cannot make specific or exclusive demands. Tell them that, if your beliefs are wrong, you are willing to accept the consequences because you know you have used your best judgement and you cannot expect yourself to do any more.

It seems to me that some proselatyzing Christians may try to convert you because they are genuinely concerned for your welfare. They may believe that your soul is in danger if you don't believe in their God. Others simply seem to feel angered or threatened by your lack of belief in their faith. Their reactions to this speech should separate one group from the other.

any missionary who is really a missionary would respect that response. no one has to believe in God, and no one should be forced to. IF God exists (that is an IF), then obviously He has given people free will and does not impose upon people. And if God does not force belief on people, neither should anyone else.

a missionary tells you about God, you respond like you just did, and the missionary should then respect you and wish you well and go in peace.

Baloo · 03-19-2003, 01:27 PM

xian:

Quote:

In your view, you seem to gain at God's silence, while those who tested God in the Bible had great gain from God's confirmation and tremendous loss if that confirmation was not forthcoming.

Um, correct me if I'm wrong: If God exists and confirms it via a 32-digit number, I will make a tremendous effort to believe - by the methods I listed - and have a much better chance of going to Heaven (great gain). if God exists, but is not forthcoming on his confirmation, I will make no effort to believe and lose my chance at Heaven (= tremendous loss). How can you say I have a net gain from God's Silence?

Also, if you haven't done so, please read this whole thread - most of your objections had already been voiced by Sotzo earlier in this thread, and I'd prefer not repeating myself unnecessarily.

keyser : 4 matching digits

7th: If we had agreed beforehand that a correct guess on your behalf would entail me following your commands, then yes. That not being the case, well, no.

Pope: 2 matching digits

xian · 03-19-2003, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Um, correct me if I'm wrong: If God exists and confirms it via a 32-digit number, I will make a tremendous effort to believe - by the methods I listed - and have a much better chance of going to Heaven (great gain). if God exists, but is not forthcoming on his confirmation, I will make no effort to believe and lose my chance at Heaven (= tremendous loss). How can you say I have a net gain from God's Silence?

but do you really believe you have great gain?

do you or do you not believe that God, if He exists, is a cruel being? Have you not already concluded that? Many atheists see God as a brutal tyrant. Children die, and God doesn't save them. Do you not also reach this conclusion?

if your 32 digits were matched, what would that do to change such a view of God? Do you really believe ;you have great gain when you already have concluded that the God you are proposing to put faith in is cruel?

Mageth · 03-19-2003, 04:30 PM

I have a perhaps easier challenge for theists.

I will convert to whatever brand of religion you so specify if you win a lottery (one of those big 7- or 8-digit ones, not some piddly little $20 one) and give me the winning ticket so I can collect the winnings, or all of the proceeds therefrom if you cash the ticket in yourself.

Optionally, if you have $1m+ dollars laying around, you can forego the lottery and just give me the money to convert me.

I'll handle the tithe, if your religion holds such a thing necessary, so don't worry about that.

This fits right in with NT teachings such as "What does it profit a man, if he gains the whole world but loses his own soul?" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

fishbulb · 03-19-2003, 05:18 PM

Quote:

xian:

any missionary who is really a missionary would respect that response. no one has to believe in God, and no one should be forced to. IF God exists (that is an IF), then obviously He has given people free will and does not impose upon people. And if God does not force belief on people, neither should anyone else.

a missionary tells you about God, you respond like you just did, and the missionary should then respect you and wish you well and go in peace.

I believe that this is something on which we can definitely agree.

7thangel · 03-19-2003, 05:20 PM

7th: If we had agreed beforehand that a correct guess on your behalf would entail me following your commands, then yes. That not being the case, well, no.

Here is one one reason why existence is not really the only issue. You have to be under God's will, else you will just create another division and confusion in the Church of God.

HRG · 03-20-2003, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xian
i dont think God would give in to your test.
God has given you enough evidence already.

No, he hasn't (if he exists). Proof: Baloo, like myself, is not convinced.
[/quote]

Capitulating to a "god-check" program is not necessary. you have chosen, and your excersise of free will is more important than God revealing Himself on you according to your will.
[/quote]
Belief is not a matter of choice, but of being convinced by evidence. I doubt you have chosen to believe that the earth is not flat.

Quote:

Which brings to bear my bet for you. Like you, I have a little "atheist check" program.

you will die, just like everyone else.

and if you wake up and see the Greatest Possible Being before you, I wager that you will not be surprised.

I would be surprised, just as I would be surprised by the appearance of Crom in my bedroom.

Some suggested responses to the alleged GPB:

"Hi Odin. Let's discuss Old Norse kennings, would you ?"

"You can't be the GPB. Cantor proved that your power set is greater than you. Nyah - Nyah - Nyah!"

Regards,
HRG

keyser_soze · 03-20-2003, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baloo
keyser : 4 matching digits

7th: If we had agreed beforehand that a correct guess on your behalf would entail me following your commands, then yes. That not being the case, well, no.

Pope: 2 matching digits [/B]

The atheist channeling god is 100% more accurate than a guy named after the holy father. I must conclude that god loves me more because he is a cynical SOB.

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03-19-2003, 10:24 AM	#121
PopeInTheWoods Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Rochester NY USA Posts: 4,318	70847590035853422668716681178942 My last vestiges of Roman Catholicism came up with that one. If it's right, I'll re-convert. Andy

03-19-2003, 01:14 PM	#122
fishbulb Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 792	The 32-digit number gimmick is clever enough, but I don't really expect that it will satisfy your inquisitors. The responses here seem to bear that out. I would suggest an alternative response: tell your missionary that you cannot choose what you believe. Your beliefs follow from the conclusions you draw from the evidence you have been given. If you find convincing evidence of the existence of God, you will come to believe in God. If you do not, you won't. Because of the nature of the claims made about God, it is hard to know in advance what would consitute convincing evidence, so you cannot make specific or exclusive demands. Tell them that, if your beliefs are wrong, you are willing to accept the consequences because you know you have used your best judgement and you cannot expect yourself to do any more. It seems to me that some proselatyzing Christians may try to convert you because they are genuinely concerned for your welfare. They may believe that your soul is in danger if you don't believe in their God. Others simply seem to feel angered or threatened by your lack of belief in their faith. Their reactions to this speech should separate one group from the other.

03-19-2003, 04:30 PM	#126
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I have a perhaps easier challenge for theists. I will convert to whatever brand of religion you so specify if you win a lottery (one of those big 7- or 8-digit ones, not some piddly little $20 one) and give me the winning ticket so I can collect the winnings, or all of the proceeds therefrom if you cash the ticket in yourself. Optionally, if you have $1m+ dollars laying around, you can forego the lottery and just give me the money to convert me. I'll handle the tithe, if your religion holds such a thing necessary, so don't worry about that. This fits right in with NT teachings such as "What does it profit a man, if he gains the whole world but loses his own soul?" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

03-19-2003, 05:20 PM	#128
7thangel Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Queens Village, NY Posts: 613	7th: If we had agreed beforehand that a correct guess on your behalf would entail me following your commands, then yes. That not being the case, well, no. Here is one one reason why existence is not really the only issue. You have to be under God's will, else you will just create another division and confusion in the Church of God.

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