paul30

Jesus was executed for being a political threat to the Romans.

The Jews may have pushed for it; but only the Romans could execute.

They didn't much care about theology; they used it only as a tool to reinforce political obedience.

I have always wondered how Christians can believe in a God so sadistic he wouldn't rescind his own law and demand the blood of his own son. Weird. Sick.

This god is the Ur-Nazi.

Magus55

Jesus = God. Jesus is just God in human form. Since humans chose to disobey God, and invoke his righteous judgment, we were destined for Hell ( punishment) with no chance of redemption, because no normal human can repay that debt back to God. So, not being content with us facing our chosen fate - God came to earth, and payed that debt for us. God gave his mortal life up to save humanity, because he loves us too much to let us face punishment. By dying by our hands, the perfect Son of God - he carried all the worlds sins and transgressions with Him on the cross. Jesus redeemed us with God, because only He could do it.

Yes i'm sure that concept is so hard to understand. In this sick, disgusting world - its incredibly rare for anyone to understand the concept of a selfless act

Cojana

What a bunch of bullprint,! even if your diatribe are right, how hard can it be for God to become a human,Die,and resurrect itself? you think that was a n act of love? what about an act of arrogance? power? anything but an act of love, no where in the bible does God remark any love for humanity, God states. 'for he loved the 'World' he gave his only begotten son,..another thing, 'Begotten', elleges God screwed the Virgin Mary, but thats another issue,, all I see about your story, are that God are a selfish power, a phychotic,sadistic Ego-maniac, its true character,..

Mageth

Originally posted by Magus55
Jesus = God. Jesus is just God in human form.

What about that whole "Son" thing and Jesus constantly talking to and referring to God? We went over this in another thread; your Trinitarian theology needs a bit of work.

Since humans chose to disobey God, and invoke his righteous judgment, we were destined for Hell ( punishment) with no chance of redemption, because no normal human can repay that debt back to God. So, not being content with us facing our chosen fate - God came to earth, and payed that debt for us. God gave his mortal life up to save humanity, because he loves us too much to let us face punishment.

Here we go again with the "God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself" story.

By dying by our hands, the perfect Son of God -

So which is it, Jesus=God or Jesus=Son of God? Make up your mind already.

And God (or the Son of God - which is it?) did not die on the cross - a human body did. The God part didn't die.

...he carried all the worlds sins and transgressions with Him on the cross. Jesus redeemed us with God, because only He could do it.

And yet you claim some of us aren't gonna make it? Then was Jesus wasting his time carring "all the world's sins and transgressions" to the cross?

Yes i'm sure that concept is so hard to understand. In this sick, disgusting world - its incredibly rare for anyone to understand the concept of a selfless act

If god exists and wanted to do a "selfless" act, he'd not condemn anyone to eternal suffering for a finite life. His supposed retaining of the right to punish most of us illustrates that his act was not so "selfless" as you claim.

Further, his "selfless" act consisted of a human life being sacrificed. God (or his Son, whichever one it is) didn't die on the cross - he was walking around a couple of days later. Again, not so "selfless" as you claim. If God wanted to perform a "selfless" act, why didn't he let himself (or his Son) really die?

BioBeing

If Jesus = Son of God, and not God per se, then how is that a selfless act on the part of GOD? God didn't let himself be killed, he sent his son. [Except, even the son didn't die - According to the myth, he was resurrected]

If Jesus = God, then he didn't die. What would it take for a God to die (and be really truly dead, not just nearly dead...)?

The idea of a selfless act is not hard to accept. We see heros around us all the time - firefighters, police officers etc who risk (and lose) their lifes everyday. And when they are dead, they are truly dead... no resurrection for the firefighters or police.

What is hard to understand is the concept of God causing evil and then sending himself to remove the evil, but not doing a very good job, and leaving behind a rather poor and convoluted account of what happened (the Bible), that we are supposed to learn from, so we don't let God cause any more evil.

Magus55

Jesus did in fact die. His mortal body did, and he suffered just like you would - actually more because of the burden he endured. Why do you think Jesus' death was any less meaningful just because he came back to life? Jesus, the mortal body, the Word of God become flesh, died completely. Ceased to live, body systems shut down, no physical life left - for 3 days. Jesus had to be ressurected, because if he stayed dead - obviously he's not God - and Christianity would have never succeeded. It was still a sacrifice, because God gave up his mortal life.


Wrong, those aren't selfless acts. Firefighters get something out of it. They get paid to risk their life ( granted a pretty crappy salary, but a salary none the less). The only selfless act on earth i can think of, is giving your life for someone else. Which we don't hear about that often. On the other hand, Jesus did that, not for one person - but for billions.

I see you still can't grasp this concept. God didn't cause evil, he created humans with choice - humans caused evil by disobeying God. The Bible is hardly a poor account. Its the most influential book in human history. Just because there are still alot of people who don't want to believe it - doesn't mean it hasn't done a good job at serving its purpose. Some people will always reject it, because there sin gets in the way and they are too blind to see the truth.

Mageth

Originally posted by Magus55
Jesus did in fact die. His mortal body did, and he suffered just like you would - actually more because of the burden he endured.

Jesus the man died, but Christ the God didn't. That's the point. God was not man enough to die himself - he sent a surrogate.

Why do you think Jesus' death was any less meaningful just because he came back to life?

You're kidding, right? He knew he'd come back to life. That's much more preferable, and less meaningful, than the poor average human who gives their life for someone else without such hope.

Jesus, the mortal body, the Word of God become flesh, died completely. Ceased to live, body systems shut down, no physical life left - for 3 days.

But Christ the God didn't die, unless you think God can die.

Jesus had to be ressurected, because if he stayed dead - obviously he's not God -

Whoa, wait a minute. First you say Jesus=God, then Jesus= Son of God, and now "obviously he's not God". Make up your mind already.

...and Christianity would have never succeeded. It was still a sacrifice, because God gave up his mortal life.

God doesn't have, didn't have a "mortal life" to give up. By your definition of God, God's immortal. In any case, Jesus the man "gave it up", as in the life of the human body, knowing he'd be popping right back up again, better than ever. Not much of a sacrifice when you get right down to it.

Wrong, those aren't selfless acts. Firefighters get something out of it. They get paid to risk their life ( granted a pretty crappy salary, but a salary none the less). The only selfless act on earth i can think of, is giving your life for someone else.

And firefighters (and others) do just that, every day. How is a firefighter going in to a burning building to try and save victims, knowing she's risking her own life, not "selfless", no matter whether she's paid or not? And note that, if she loses her life in the process, she gets nothing out of it.

Which we don't hear about that often.

Only every day in the papers.

On the other hand, Jesus did that, not for one person - but for billions.

It would seem that sacrificing yourself for one person is more selfless than sacrificing yourself for billions, esp. if the person sacrificing himself for billions knew that it was only a temporary setback.

I see you still can't grasp this concept. God didn't cause evil, he created humans with choice - humans caused evil by disobeying God.

We've gone over this before. God set up the system knowing what would happen beforehand. God created the world, and humans, knowing the fruit would be eaten, knowing they would choose to disobey, and knowing the plan he'd devised to come to the rescue. The buck stops at God's desk. He wrote the book, set up the stage, set the actors in motion, and directed the action.

The Bible is hardly a poor account.

Hence the three major world religions, two major divisions of Xianity, and countless sects and denominations that have spun off from the "account."

Its the most influential book in human history.

And that's damned unfortunate. It's got people running around thinking they're guilty all the time, thinking the only solution to their guilt is blood sacrifice, and thinking perfectly good people are going to hell to be subjected to eternal punishment just because they don't believe the damned thing.

Three of the world's great religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all based on this "influential" book. Just considering all the wars and suffering the world has seen at the hands of those three religions, esp. Xianity and Islam, and the way those wars and suffering are continuing today and unfortunately will probably continue into the future, one sees that the influence of the "good book" hasn't exactly been all that good.

Just because there are still alot of people who don't want to believe it - doesn't mean it hasn't done a good job at serving its purpose.

What's that, incide division and wars in the world? Make good people fear hell and damnation at the hands of a "loving" god, subjecting them to lives of guilt? Make 1/3 of the world think the other 2/3, plus many of their own in the 1/3, are going to hell to suffer for eternity? It's done a damned fine job of those things, that's for sure.

BTW, it's not because we don't want to believe it, it's because it's not believable. Worse than that, it's bad for the world, for humankind to believe it. That's been true throughout history, is true today, and will be true tomorrow.

For chrissakes, the Bible is a guidebook for the tribal war-god, blood-sacrifice religion of an obscure little nation in the Eastern Mediterranean. The religion was set up to allow the nation to feel good about themselves when they slaughtered their neighbors - men, women, and children. It's foolish and dangerous for us to keep following it in todays world.

Some people will always reject it, because there sin gets in the way and they are too blind to see the truth.

There you go with that "sin" thing again, another concept the "good book" has shackled humankind with, and one it's past time we rid ourselves of.

And you've got it backwards. The concept of sin is blinding you to the truth. Cast off the blindfold and open your eyes to see the world as it really is, to see yourself as you really are. You're not a worthless sinner as the prophets of doom would have you believe. You are a human of untapped potential, shackled by the chains of a primitive man-invented religion that condemns you to live a life of fear, guilt and condemnation.

Sin no longer blinds my eyes,
the Word no longer binds my thought.
I am free of the shackles of deception,
and the world shows me her heart.

Opera Nut

The world is a random and scary place, and Christianity reduces stress by giving a person the idea that they are special and that god looks after them and cares for them, and makes the world not random and not scary.

Unfortunately, the world is random and scary, and no beliefs that I have tried, including Christianity, have done anything to change reality to something less random and scary.


Besides, Jesus was not the Messiah according to the OT, there were five different things he had to do. Yeshua Ben Joseph did NONE of those things mentioned in the OT.

Radorth

Of course if a firefighter died trying to save the kids, after Cojana set fire to the house while smoking in bed, would Cojana ask "Why did God allow that firefighter to die for my sin?"?

Methinks not.

Rad

Radorth

Really? Last week you said he made us feel like worthless sinners.

Rad