Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kevin Dorner · 03-15-2002, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
<strong>IGWT on plaques in schools, however... THAT gives me a lot of heartache.</strong>

Here's some: <a href="http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/031502/met_8881582.html" target="_blank">In God schools trust: Districts agree to post nation's controversial motto</a>

You don't just get the posters... kids might ignore them. You also get the man who's hanging them making sure that the kids read it, and a little question-and-answer session:

[from the article]

"Fred Galloway, 79, smiled as a first-grade class at Baker County's Westside Elementary School read aloud the words on the poster in his hand. "In God We Trust," it said.

"And who is God?" Galloway asked.

A 7-year-old girl raised her hand.

"Jesus," she said.

Alonzo Fyfe · 03-15-2002, 07:41 PM

The most problematic word that I find in our national motto “In God We Trust” is not God – though it plays a crucial supporting role. It is the word “We.”

The purpose of this motto is to divide the population into two groups. If there is a “we” or “us” who “trust in God,” then there must be a “they” or “them”, distinguished by the fact that they do not. It is intended to give theists a warm sense of belonging and membership, and say to those who do not believe in a God that they are outsiders, unwelcome. The message could not have been clearer if the motto were “no atheists allowed.”

A look at history, when this became our national motto, shows this force at work. It was in the late 1950s, during the Cold War, a decade in which the philosophies of hate and intolerance were particularly strong and in the hands of people like Eugene McCarthy.

Many people saw that struggle as a contest between “us” and “them”, where “them” consisted of “godless communists”. “Us”, by implication, were the “Christian capitalists”. The phrase “In God We Trust” had been around for nearly a century. (It had been on the money since the 1860s; during another conflict in which many of “us” felt a strong need to see ourselves as being “for God” and to cast “them” – the South – as being against God.)

So, it was easy and natural, given the climate in the 1950s, to give this schism between “we” or “us” theists and “them” atheistic communists the official stamp of government approval by adopting this particular motto.

Now we have suffered a new crisis, and there are those who seek to exploit this emergency to force this division between “we” or “us” and “them” still wider. In the name of patriotism and defending “all that makes this country great”. These people want to require that schools now teach all children this careful distinction between “we” to trust in God, and “they” who do not.

They want the schools to tell theist children that they should feel welcome and included, and they want these same public schools to tell nontheist children that they are unwelcome outsiders – that they must convert to be considered one of “us” or a member of the “we”.

The immorality of such a maneuver does not require any mention of the First Amendment. It would be no different than if, for example, the country had adopted as its moral “Caucasians Are Us.” Such a motto would not run afowl of the First Amendment and with no other amendment. It would be consistent with the beliefs and the attitudes of the founding fathers. It would be true to our heritage. As a national motto, it has as much going for it as “In God We Trust” has going for it. Our founding fathers were as bigoted as they were religious; probably even more so.

In spite of this I have no doubt that very few could see the immorality of such a motto. Nor does it require much imagination to picture the type of person who would support it. And all of this comes not from the word “God”, but from the word “we”, and the fact that every such use of this words requires a “they” or “them” to go along with it -- to be excluded, to be marked as unwelcome and undeserving.

This is what those who insist on posting "In God We Trust" in our schools want to make sure to have our children learn.

99Percent · 03-15-2002, 08:15 PM

Great post.

Now I understand why I don't like the motto "United We Stand" either!

RufusAtticus · 03-15-2002, 08:41 PM

The supreme court found that the "In God We Trust" national motto was a secular motto. (Yeah go figure.) However, I don't see how this would automatically allow the religiously motivated postings of IGWT that we are currently experiencing.

-RvFvS

cartman · 03-16-2002, 05:47 AM

This isn't exactly on topic, but...

Remember, there is "a rat" in "separate."

I read that somewhere when I was a kid and it stuck. (Yeah, we had books back then!)

PopeInTheWoods · 03-16-2002, 08:14 AM

Great post Alonzo! Just one minor quibble. In this section:

Quote:

Originally posted by Alonzo Fyfe:
<strong>A look at history, when this became our national motto, shows this force at work. It was in the late 1950s, during the Cold War, a decade in which the philosophies of hate and intolerance were particularly strong and in the hands of people like Eugene McCarthy.</strong>

I think you actually want to refer to Senator Joseph McCarthy, the Wisconsin Republican circa 1952, and the main perpetrator of the "Red Scare". Eugene McCarthy was a Democratic Senator from Minnesota who ran for President in 1968 partly on an anti-Vietnam War platform.

Andy

bob · 03-16-2002, 11:01 AM

Yes the 2 "god mottos" (IGWT and 1 nation under god) were started under McCarthyism in 1952 and 1954... We still cant get away from that damn senator.

Brian K. · 03-17-2002, 07:12 PM

Hi guys! I'm seriously overwheled by the number of replies and, they have helped me alot. I would like to address a few statements:

Originally posted by Maleficus

Quote:

Well, you just have to say the Pledge of Allegance, I go to a Baptist school where I'm forced to pray like 4 times a day, Bible study is a manditory class,

I've got 1 question for you. What is an Atheist doing in Baptist School? I cant reply to say that no one can make you pray (of course), and I cant stress enough how important to everyone how imperative it is to read the Bible. I am currently reading it because I am on a quest for knowledge and I have to read this book that has touched so many lives. I think it is a powerful book, but every page seems more ludicrous than the next. I would like to read it before i judge any who follow it.

Originally posted by Kevin Dorner

Quote:

Here's some: In God schools trust: Districts agree to post nation's controversial motto.

I got 3 paragraphs into this article and I had to
exit it. It made me mad that someone would try to force their beleifs on children just because those beliefs have helped him. This make me mad that he would do this, but to do it in a school. I had to X it immediatly.

Well thanks again for your responces and i hope they keep coming.
Thanks, Brian

Maleficus · 03-18-2002, 09:23 AM

It's a long story, I home-schooled last semester, my parents are in a big custody battle, my dad insisted that I go to a physical school, and we hadn't documented the home-schooling well enough for any public school to take me, so it was this or repeat my grade, I've got a 3.5 average GPA, and plan on going to a decent college, there's no way in hell I'm repeating a grade. I can deal with it, I just lie to them, which I have no problem with, during the prayers (I've never, and will never, do one aloud) I just kind of laugh at them for their mindless devotion.

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03-15-2002, 07:41 PM	#12
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	The most problematic word that I find in our national motto “In God We Trust” is not God – though it plays a crucial supporting role. It is the word “We.” The purpose of this motto is to divide the population into two groups. If there is a “we” or “us” who “trust in God,” then there must be a “they” or “them”, distinguished by the fact that they do not. It is intended to give theists a warm sense of belonging and membership, and say to those who do not believe in a God that they are outsiders, unwelcome. The message could not have been clearer if the motto were “no atheists allowed.” A look at history, when this became our national motto, shows this force at work. It was in the late 1950s, during the Cold War, a decade in which the philosophies of hate and intolerance were particularly strong and in the hands of people like Eugene McCarthy. Many people saw that struggle as a contest between “us” and “them”, where “them” consisted of “godless communists”. “Us”, by implication, were the “Christian capitalists”. The phrase “In God We Trust” had been around for nearly a century. (It had been on the money since the 1860s; during another conflict in which many of “us” felt a strong need to see ourselves as being “for God” and to cast “them” – the South – as being against God.) So, it was easy and natural, given the climate in the 1950s, to give this schism between “we” or “us” theists and “them” atheistic communists the official stamp of government approval by adopting this particular motto. Now we have suffered a new crisis, and there are those who seek to exploit this emergency to force this division between “we” or “us” and “them” still wider. In the name of patriotism and defending “all that makes this country great”. These people want to require that schools now teach all children this careful distinction between “we” to trust in God, and “they” who do not. They want the schools to tell theist children that they should feel welcome and included, and they want these same public schools to tell nontheist children that they are unwelcome outsiders – that they must convert to be considered one of “us” or a member of the “we”. The immorality of such a maneuver does not require any mention of the First Amendment. It would be no different than if, for example, the country had adopted as its moral “Caucasians Are Us.” Such a motto would not run afowl of the First Amendment and with no other amendment. It would be consistent with the beliefs and the attitudes of the founding fathers. It would be true to our heritage. As a national motto, it has as much going for it as “In God We Trust” has going for it. Our founding fathers were as bigoted as they were religious; probably even more so. In spite of this I have no doubt that very few could see the immorality of such a motto. Nor does it require much imagination to picture the type of person who would support it. And all of this comes not from the word “God”, but from the word “we”, and the fact that every such use of this words requires a “they” or “them” to go along with it -- to be excluded, to be marked as unwelcome and undeserving. This is what those who insist on posting "In God We Trust" in our schools want to make sure to have our children learn.

03-15-2002, 08:15 PM	#13
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	Great post. Now I understand why I don't like the motto "United We Stand" either!

03-15-2002, 08:41 PM	#14
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	The supreme court found that the "In God We Trust" national motto was a secular motto. (Yeah go figure.) However, I don't see how this would automatically allow the religiously motivated postings of IGWT that we are currently experiencing. -RvFvS

03-16-2002, 05:47 AM	#15
cartman Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: USA Posts: 175	This isn't exactly on topic, but... Remember, there is "a rat" in "separate." I read that somewhere when I was a kid and it stuck. (Yeah, we had books back then!)

03-16-2002, 11:01 AM	#17
bob Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Rockford, Michigan Posts: 9	Yes the 2 "god mottos" (IGWT and 1 nation under god) were started under McCarthyism in 1952 and 1954... We still cant get away from that damn senator.

03-18-2002, 09:23 AM	#19
Maleficus Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Arkansas(Born in Texas, and damn proud of it!) Posts: 149	It's a long story, I home-schooled last semester, my parents are in a big custody battle, my dad insisted that I go to a physical school, and we hadn't documented the home-schooling well enough for any public school to take me, so it was this or repeat my grade, I've got a 3.5 average GPA, and plan on going to a decent college, there's no way in hell I'm repeating a grade. I can deal with it, I just lie to them, which I have no problem with, during the prayers (I've never, and will never, do one aloud) I just kind of laugh at them for their mindless devotion.

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