Toto

The key phrase is "private speech in a public forum." A graduation ceremony is not a public forum where anyone can get up and say anything.

What part of http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com are you referencing?

Daleth

Dune,

You're missing what freedom of speech means and what freedom of religion means. Neither is a right to do or say anything you believe anyplace you feel like it.

Yes, the school absolutely has a right to censor what a student says using their mike at an event they are paying for. That's not big brother. That's the way things happen every day. If this girl started belting out any song she felt like in the middle of the ceremony without permission, they'd have the right to remove her. If she started singing a song about god or anything at all after the ceremony when evryone was meeting their families and taking pictures, they'd have no right to censor her because now it's on her time. But they have a right to decide what can and can't be said as an official part of their ceremony.

See that's the difference. She can say what she wants when she's not representing them. When she is representing them, they get to decide. And if they don't want the word "Blue" in her song... well, they're dumb, but they are within their rights.

Dal

Jewel

Dune -- where does Toto say the song shouldn't be allowed because it is offensive. I cannot find it. I do see that he answers your question:
with:
But that is all. I do not see where he said her song should be banned because it is offensive. Am I missing something here??

I also do not recall anyone saying she can thank God all she wants during her speech. If she wants to thank God during her speech, no one can really stop her -- although I'm sure she would get escorted off stage if it became excessive (as decided by the school). Her speech being a religious song is different -- that makes the focus religion -- that is what I was talking about with trillian1.

What Toto and Daleth said in their previous 2 posts pretty much sums it up for me.

-Jewel

Dune

Let me see if I understand the main focus of your argument:

A person should not be allowed to make a speech based on their faith in a public forum so long as the state is paying for the equipment because that would imply the state is sanctioning that religion over another?

<quote> She can say what she wants when she's not representing them. When she is representing them, they get to decide <quote>

This is a disagreement point: She gets her speech and it represents her and her only- like any validvictorian speech. If it was made by a school official- that is a different story.
The school granted her the right to speak- this is true.
Should it also be true that they mandate what she gets to say?
NO. The state mandating what can and cannot be said is all to Ashcroft for my tastes. Again- so long as it is not "obscene" or derrogatory or hurtful....

Freedom of speech is just that: so long as it does not impinge on anothers freedoms. stating my belief is not infringing on you. Even if I am at a even sponsored by the state.
The question is: If the state suppresses the expression of faith, wouldn't that be creating an enviroment detrimental to people of that faith?

So you cant leave if you want to: you can. Guards are not stopping you. PLUS- hearing dissenting beleifs is not going to kill anyone. Silencing those who differ from you is no way to enforce freedom.
Could you jump up and sing- well, yes. Decorum would be against you and you would be asked to be silent since the event is about students and not you. And her time is about her, not you OR about the school.

Do I think she should be allowed to lead a prayer- no. Do I think she should make a speech extoling those around her to xtianity? No.

Dune

<quote> McClure, a constitutional rights attorney, said he expected the lawsuit would be withdrawn, perhaps as early as Friday.

"The law is clear that you cannot proselytize at a graduation, but the student has every right to exercise their free speech rights, such as explaining what is meaningful to them as they graduate from high school," he said.

"The school district mistakenly thought even one mention of the word God was the same thing as proselytizing, which, upon reflection, they realized is incorrect. ... All this girl wanted to do is convey in a simple song her attitude as she moves on in life." <quote>

www.jsoline.com

Daleth

Not quite. My use of the term "mike" was a bit of a metaphor. Similar to saying, "they are giving her the floor."

And again, no, it doesn't have to be religion. It can be absolutely anything that the school doesn't want her to say. You said,

So in other words, as long as it doesn't offend YOU? No! It's their ceremony. If they can refuse to allow her to say "niggers and kikes" (both words she can use on the street, at her own peril) they can also tell her not to use the words god or blue or cheese.

If they can censor out the words or concepts you listed above, why not anything else? You've admitted they have a right to censor speech that would be legal for her to say while she's walking through the mall. But she's NOT walking through the mall. She's using their space, their time, their ceremony, and is a representative of her class while she's doing it.

I have no idea why you think it's more valid for them to censor some protected forms of speech and not others.

Dal

Anti-Creedance Front

Even though I am a strict opponent of organized religion, even though I'm an agnostic, even though I live in the same state as her, freedom of speech comes first. I don't think this is any attempt to force anything on anyone. She isn't saying "come to Jesus" or something, just thanking god for what she believes he has done for her. It's not outward directed at all. I think as long as someone can put god on their thank you list at graduation without getting squelched, you should be able to sing about it. And I encourage a strong atheist to go up there and express what they are. Now on the other hand, if she's a crappy singer, she should have duct tape wrapped around her lips.

Chad

I don't understand why it is so difficult for people to understand why she should be not be allowed to sing a religious song for a religious purpose. The fact that she has been invited to sing at this function already demonstrates that she is not entitled to sing. Seems rather ridiculous to me to suggest that organizers of an event cannot dictate what an invited guest speaks or sings about after they have extended an invitation.

All that said, I don't believe for a second that her singing this song is about her but is rather about her inflicting her religious beliefs on those she wishes to convert or make feel as outsiders. Furthermore, even if she is speaking for herself, how would we ever know? This is the exact type of exception that fundies will abuse to further their agenda. Probably wouldn't be too surprising if if eventually every student that is invited to speak coincedentally wishes to speak about the Christian God. Why can't this girl and those like her sing about their God before or after the ceremony? Because it is not as much fun preaching to the choir if you get the government to permit you the opportunity to preach to those not in your camp. As far as I am concerned, this girl is suing for the right to be rude little bitch.

keitht

Ahhh, the perils of drawing lines with language.

Keith

BioBeing

PS keitht - What other methods do we have available to us?