Fiach

Originally posted by Ed
I have known many fundamentalists, probably many more than you, and have never met one that was a geocentrist. No, they should not be geocentrists, nowhere in the bible does it teach geocentrism or flat earthism (as I demonstrated).

I agree. Most fundies reject the literal Bible on the solar system and flat earth.

The Bible says the sun stood still about a day (Joshua 10:8 and 12,13) and even gone backwards ten degrees (2 Kings 20:9-11). This clearly describes a movement of the sun with respect to the Earth. It does not say the earth stopped rotating or reversed rotation. It says the Sun stopped and once reversed direction.

Deuteronomy 13:7
" of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; (Flat earth).

Deuteronomy 28:64
"And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other;" (flat earth).

Matthew 5:8 "Again the devil taketh him (Jesus) up into an exceedingly high mountain, and shewed him all of the kingdoms of the world," (flat earth, it would be impossible from any middle eastern or Himalayan mountain for Jesus to see the American Hopewell Kingdom, the Meso-American, or Andean Indian Kingdoms, and Kingdom of Hawaii at the same time as seeing Nabataea, Greece, Syria, Parthia, Egypt in the year 29 CE.)

So the Bible does inspite of your opinion does claim the solar system is geocentric with the Sun moving around the earth, and it does say that the Earth is flat twice in the Old Testament and once in the New Testament. This latter is incredible since the contemporary Greco-Roman-Egyptian scientists had in the 4th century BCE discoverd the curve of the earth and calculated the approximate circumference of the Earth. It was known well until the 4 the century at the time of the death of Hypatia of Alexandria and the burning of "heresy scrolls" that claimed a flat earth. 800 years of correct knowledge of the spherical earth were lost by Christian suppression of science until 1492 when Columbus embarassed the Church by proving the Bible wrong.

Fiach

NOGO

Yet geocentrist exist and they have a web site. They base their beliefs on the Bible. So if these people are not fundies what do you call them.

"as I demonstrated"
Ed, only in your dreams do you ever demonstrate anything.


Gen 1:6-9
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

The firmament or heaven separates water above from waters below. The waters below are obviously the oceans and lakes etc. but what are the waters above?
Note that firmament and heaven are the same.


Gen 1:14-18
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

So the firmament or heaven which separates water from water also contain the sun, moon and stars. So the waters above the firmament are also above the sun, moon and stars.


Psalms|104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Psalms|104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
Psalms|104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Psalms|104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Psalms|104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
Psalms|104:7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
Psalms|104:8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
Psalms|104:9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
Psalms|104:10 He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills
Psalms|104:11 They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.
Psalms|104:12 By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches.
Psalms|104:13 He watereth the hills from his chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of thy works

God's chambers are on the waters. Note also that clouds are like chariots to ride in.
Note the last line. He waters the hills from his chambers not from the clouds. Now which waters are we talking about in
Ps 104:3 ? Could it be the waters below the firmament?

Well rain usually falls straight down. If God waters the hills from his chambers then his chambers are somewhere above the hills.
So if it isn't clouds then his chambers whose foundations are in the waters must be in the waters above the firmament.
So the waters above the firmament are used for rain as also confirmed in the verses below.

Deuteronomy 28:12
The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand:

Genesis 8:1-2
And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;
The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained

Windows of heavens are more like opening in the firmament through which water falls than clouds.
So the waters above are for rain.


Job 38:22,
"Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, and seen the treasury of the hail?"


Deut 28:12
The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none.


These two verses shows that God stored snow and hail in some chamber or vault.



Job 11: 7-8
Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty?
They are high as the heavens, what can you do? Deeper than Sheol, what can you know?
Its measure is longer than the earth And broader than the sea.

Psalm 103: 11-12
For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.


In the verses above the height of heaven above the earth is spoken in term which make it comparable to
1) The deapth of Sheol
2) earth's length
3) the size of the sea
4) the distance between east and west

Sheol is below ground so an upper limit to this measure is 4000 miles since that would take us to the center of the earth.
Both 2 and 3 can be as much as 8,000 miles since that is the earth's diameter. The size of the sea can actually be more that
the earth's diameter but cannot be more than the earth's circumference which is 24,000 miles. The pacific ocean can be as
much as 10,000 miles.

So the height of heavens is at most 10,000 miles which does not even get you to the moon which is at 238,000 miles.
Yet Genesis says that God placed the moon the sun and the stars in the firmament.


This shows the position of the throne above the firmament but also it shows the relatively closeness of the
"great cloud" in verse 4, the creatures which are cherubim, the firmament above their heads and the throne above the firmament.
So the throne of God is just above the firmament which is like a terrible crystal streatched out above the heads of the cherubins.
Also the firmament is a solid surface


Rev 6:12-15
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Note that the story continues despite the fact that stars fell to earth. Today we know that if a single star falls to earth then
the end would be immediate. Evidently stars falling like late figs convey an immage of stars as being small lights in the firmament
just above the earth. Many of these small lights can fall without grave consequences.

Revelation 12:4
And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

This shows that the stars in Revelation are not meteorites.

Note also that the heaven rolled up like a scroll. Again this conveys an image that heaven or firmament is a surface.

THE SUN

Ps 19:4:6
... In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.

It is claimed that this is poetry. Yet the imagery must be noted since it is based on belief.
The analogy of the sun movement is with a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion.
The pavilion is the tent which God has pitched for the sun.
The bride is like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
The sun rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other.

The conclusion is this. The sun comes out of its tent, and run its course which is from one end the heavens to the other end.
There is no concept he of a continuous movement. There is a start and there is an end. Rather the imagery is like that of a champion coming out of his pavillion rejoicing to run his course. So there is definitely a start and an end to the sun's path, each day.

Ecclesiastes 1:5
Also, the sun rises and the sun sets; And hastening to its place it rises there again.

Note the "hastening to its place". So the sun returns to its place ready to rise again. Again there is no concept that the sun's
movement is continuous. The sun rushes to its place ready to rise again.

Job 9:7 Who is speaking to the sun, and it riseth not, And the stars He sealeth up.

This simply shows that the sun is ordered not to rise. It is not the earth that is ordered not to turn.


Joshua 10:12-14

On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon."
So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.
There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a man. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!

Again the sun is ordered to stop and it delays going down. The movement is that of the sun not the earth.



FLAT-EARTH

Daniel 4:7-8, "I saw a tree of great height at the center of the world. It was large and strong, with its top touching the heavens, and it could be seen from the ends of the earth."

This was allegedly an inspired dream, yet it conveys a flat-earth concept, because no matter how tall a tree would be, people on the other side of a spherical earth could not see it.

Matthew 4:8, "The devil took him (Jesus) to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence...."

The only plausible reason for the "very high mountain" was that the altitude would make it possible to see to the ends of the earth. Only on a flat earth would this be remotely possible, so the New Testament writers were as ignorant as the Old.



EARTH FOUNDATIONS

Psalm 104: 5
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

I Sam 2:8
"For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.

Isa 13:13
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.

I Chron 16:30
Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.

There are many more like the above.


BACK TO HEAVEN

Isaiah 40:22 "It is he (God) that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

First a circle is not a sphere as some pretend.
"... the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers," from where God sits humans are as grasshoppers. This shows the relative height from which God views the earth. The text suggests that God sees humans from a great height so that they appear the size of grasshoppers. This height cannot be light years away, nor can it be just a few feet.
"stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."
This sentence compare the heavens to a tent. In which way can the heavens look like a tent? Picture a tent over a globe ... does this resemble heavens? So what can it poosbly mean?

we have seen
1) the earth is flat and on a foundation. It does not move.
2) the sun runs its course from one end of heavens to the other and then rushes to its place to rise again
3) the stars fall to earth as figs
4) rain water is above the firmament along with the storehouse for snow and hail.
5) God waters the hills from his chambers
6) the cherubim is Ezekiel 1:26 which were just below the firmament and God's throne was right above it.
7) the heavens rolled up like a scroll
8) God called the firmament, heaven in Genesis.


Conclusions
The heavens or firmament is like a tent stretched out over a flat earth. Note that the heavens rolled up like a scroll in Rev 6:14 it is therefore a surface and it looks like a tent.
The earth is a circle, a flat circle over which is a domelike surface (like a tent)
Above the dome are sorehouses for snow, rain, hail, wind etc. which are sent down to earth by God
Above the dome is also God's throne and chambers
Below the dome is the sun, moon and stars.
The sun enters into the dome from his chamber at one end of the heavens and travels to the other end. It then exits and rushes to its position to re-enter again.


How does this compare with the Book of Enoch.

Enoch [Chapter 72]
The book of the courses of the luminaries of the heaven, the relations of each, according to their classes, their dominion and their seasons, according to their names and places of origin, and according to their months, which Uriel, the holy angel, who was with me, who is their guide, showed me; and he showed me all their laws exactly as they are, and how it is with regard to all the years of the world and unto eternity, till the new creation is accomplished which dureth till eternity. And this is the first law of the luminaries: the luminary the Sun has its rising in the eastern portals of the heaven, and its setting in the western portals of the heaven. And I saw six portals in which the sun rises, and six portals in which the sun sets and the moon rises and sets in these portals, and the leaders of the stars and those whom they lead: six in the east and six in the west, and all following each other in accurately corresponding order

Notice that the sun enters the dome of heaven from the east through 6 portals and exits in the west through 6 portals.

Enoch goes on to describe this in detail, for example verses 8 and 9

When the sun rises in the heaven, he comes forth through that fourth portal thirty mornings in succession, and sets accurately in the fourth portal in the west of the heaven.

Enoch Chapter 75 v6-9
As for the twelve portals in the heaven, at the ends of the earth, out of which go forth the sun, moon, and stars, 7 and all the works of heaven in the east and in the west, There are many windows open to the left and right of them, and one window at its (appointed) season produces warmth, corresponding (as these do) to those doors from which the stars come forth according as He has commanded them, 8 and wherein they set corresponding to their number. And I saw chariots in the heaven, running 9 in the world, above those portals in which revolve the stars that never set.

Compare all this to

Ps 19:4:6
... In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.

Right on! The sun runs its course from one end of the heavens to the other end ie from the eartern portals to western portals.

Ecclesiastes 1:5
Also, the sun rises and the sun sets; And hastening to its place it rises there again.

"Hastening to its place" again suggests a return path outside the dome in preparation for another run.


Isaiah 40:22 "It is he (God) that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."

Indeed the heavens are like a tent ie a dome which the sun, moon and star enter run their courses and exit at appointed times.


Enoch chapter 72 v37
... and his light (the sun) is sevenfold brighter than that of the moon; but as regards size they are both equal.

Note that Joshua ordered "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon."
Since the sun is much larger than earth it is impossible for the sun to stop over a city. The idea that the sun and moon can stop over different places on earth clearly shows the belief stated in Enoch 37 that the sun and moon were the same size.


Rev 6:12-15
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation talks about one third of the stars falling to earth and then the next third etc. so these are not meteorites. The stars are little lights much smaller than the sun and moon according to Enoch and this is what is reflected in Revelations.
Again the dome of heaven which departs like a scroll ie a surface.


Enoch Chapter 34 v2-3
. And here I saw three portals of heaven open in the heaven: through each of them proceed north winds: when they blow there is cold, hail, frost, 3 snow, dew, and rain.

Compare this to

Genesis 8:1-2
And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained

Windows of heavens are openings in the dome of heaven through which water falls.

I can go on but it is no use to beat a dead horse.

Fiach

5) God waters the hills from his chambers

Crikey! You mean that rain is just God emptying his chamber pot? Yuck!

Fiach

Biff the unclean

I've always found it funny that the bible verses quoted above were the very ones that were used as evidence against Galileo in February of 1633. The funny part is that Magellan's ships completed their round the world voyage in September of 1522.
Makes you wonder why Fundis waste their time on Darwin when Magellan already proved the bible to be false.

Ed

You must not have read the whole thing, see my posts to Darwin's donkey, I mean terrier. Also, one that I didnt mention in that thread is the Cambrian explosion, there were no transitions found before that event.

Fraid so, see my February 14 post.

Where you call me a liar without proving it.


No, there needs to be evidence from both sources for a christian since both nature and the bible are God's communication to us.

In his vision he may be seeing God in silhouette sitting over the circle of the earth. In silhouette a sphere looks like a circle.

Fraid so, see my February 14 post.


No, an expanse is a space, not solid matter. For example, "He built a bridge across the expanse."

No, you have failed to prove it is not a metaphor. And even if it is not a metaphor it still does not mean the bible teaches that there is a solid dome over the earth, it just means that that is what Moses believed. God did not correct the beliefs of the authors of the bible in areas that were relatively unimportant and not part of his primary message. But the evidence points to it being a metaphor.

Ed

Neither do I, read my posts where I refuted such a misinterpretation.

Quote:

wj: Not to mention that the moral and religious laws suppressed natural urges such as masturbation, which can cause frustrated individuals to commit rape and child abuse and molestation (like Catholic priests).

Actually studies have shown that individuals that commit rape and molest children use more pornography than the general public and therefore probably masturbate MORE rather than suppress their urges.

winstonjen

Prove it. There have been many pedophile priests, out of proportion to the rest of society, and their teachings forbid fornication of any kind. They resort to molesting kids when they can't take the suppression any longer.

lpetrich

Ed:
Also, one that I didnt mention in that thread is the Cambrian explosion, there were no transitions found before that event.

Except that soft parts don't fossilize very well. Though one does find some sort-of-transitional fossils in the late Precambrian like Kimberella (possible mollusk ancestor), as this paper explains.

In his vision he may be seeing God in silhouette sitting over the circle of the earth. In silhouette a sphere looks like a circle.

With the sky being like a tent and God sitting on a throne above it. Tents are usually placed on flat surfaces, however.

No, you have failed to prove it is not a metaphor. And even if it is not a metaphor it still does not mean the bible teaches that there is a solid dome over the earth, it just means that that is what Moses believed. God did not correct the beliefs of the authors of the bible in areas that were relatively unimportant and not part of his primary message. But the evidence points to it being a metaphor.

A being who specifies animal sacrifices in gory detail (see Leviticus) yet who does not want to correct such errors made by his followers?

I don't see why I have to take such bullshit seriously.

Actually studies have shown that individuals that commit rape and molest children use more pornography than the general public and therefore probably masturbate MORE rather than suppress their urges.

Which ones? Those that come from the imaginations and selective "research" of fundies?

Fiach

Ed:
Also, one that I didnt mention in that thread is the Cambrian explosion, there were no transitions found before that event.

Except that soft parts don't fossilize very well. Though one does find some sort-of-transitional fossils in the late Precambrian like Kimberella (possible mollusk ancestor), as this paper explains.

You are right, before when there were only soft creatures that don't fossilise well. But some akaryotic cells have been identified and structures out of cells looking like mitochrondia and nuclei. One hypothesis is that the parts of karyotic cells (cells with nuclei) may be the results of mergers or actually intake of smaller lifeforms like mitochondria and nuclei that adapted inside the cell cytoplasm. So rather than explosion it may have been an implosion.

To my knowlege the first transitional form leading later to us was a creature (name forgotton) that gave rise to Pikaea the worm like creature with an eye spot, muscle segments, a notochord, and a primitive crossing set of nerves to work the muscles in an alternating way still evident in the swimming of fish, walking of horses, and gait of humans with the unconscious alternate arm swing. The other branch led to crustaceans. Why do we think that? It is because presumably Pikaea and later us still carry an usually dormant gene to manufacture a crustacean exoskeleton.
Pikaea itself is a transitional form for amphioxus, protochordates, chordates, early fish, sharks, boney fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals and us.

Fiach

Fiach

The fact that we share old genes with worms, flies, and even bacteria is more of the beautiful evidence of evolution.

Fiach