Freethought & Rationalism Archive

viscousmemories · 02-04-2003, 03:41 PM

luvluv,

For the sake of clarification, let me start by explaining my two previous posts. In the first one, I was trying to give an example of how social condemnation of certain sexual activities frequently has the unfortunate side-effect of demeaning and humiliating the victim. I probably wasn't clear on that, but that was the point of my story.

I was ashamed of what transpired, because (for any of you who haven't had the experience) someone performing oral sex on you has a way of making you feel really good, and when you are later told by EVERYONE in your life that what happened was sick and wrong and dirty, it is quite likely you will feel sick and wrong and dirty for having enjoyed it.

In retrospect, how do I feel about what my mother did? Well, use your best judgement to figure it out. I clearly needed someone to explain to me what had happened and what these feelings I had were all about. My Mother called the police. How much of a positive effect do you think that had?

As for my second post, well, I was admittedly inflamed by your response and therefore not as kind as I would have liked to have been in saying what I said. However, I formulated the gist of those points last night as I read through this thread, I just phrased them a little less kindly because I was angry.

However, your response to me was a case in point. I reacted emotionally, and verbally attacked you for your comment, and your response was calm, succint, even-tempered and incomplete. I expected nothing more. That is just the kind of zombie-like response I've gotten from my debates with christians all my life. However, I want to be perfectly clear that you aren't fooling me with that veneer.

Your disgust with sex and your seething hatred for the men and women who have expressed their open-mindedness about their sexual appetites and practices in this thread have made it clear that your entire argument is a facade for what your real opinion is. You will get much more support, I suspect, if you just say what you mean. Of course, if you say what you really mean, there are likely to be a number of people here who think that you are completely insane. That's okay, Man. Have the courage of your convictions and let it out.

In answer to what you claim is your ultimate underlying question about the moral implications of masturbating to an image of an exploited woman, I will side with Silent Acorns and say how could something possibly be immoral that occurs in the privacy of your own home, with no feedback given to the creator of the image as to your accquistion or use of it? (Sorry if that's not an accurate portrayal of your statement, SA.)

Again, I implore you to take the high road and attack freedom of sexual expression on the whole, instead of hiding behind your flimsy argument that you are simply against the exploitation of women in pornography. In the many subtle jabs you have made at LadyShea and COAS throughout this thread, it is painfully evident that you don't really have the slightest concern for the women who are involved in the industry.

beastmaster · 02-04-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv
It is not that I hold sex in too low a regard which makes me disagree with you folks most of the time, it is perhaps that I hold it in too high a regard relative to your standards.

Abso-fucking-lutely right you do!

Funny how just four and a half hours ago you claimed it was *us* who were deifying or worshipping sex.

No sir, it is *you* who is putting sex on a pedestal.

You divide sex into two categories: BEAUTIFUL sex between loving committed partners and WRONG/EXPLOITATIVE/DEGRADING sex (everything else).

But sex is far more complicated than that. Mostly, it's just plain fun. And it's a little dirty too, if you're doing it right.

Love does not make the sex any better.

Now sex may enrich love, but love does not enrich sex.

Your glorification of sex will ultimately leave you unsatisfied.

You should relax and enjoy yourself.

viscousmemories · 02-04-2003, 04:03 PM

luvluv,

I'd just like to add this one thing:

I have heard you say that you have nothing against sex, that it's pornography that you have a problem with, not sex. We have all heard you. You clearly have a hard time believing we hear you because you keep repeating it in every post. So now that you have surely noticed that many people here believe you truly don't like sex, regardless of your claims that you do, it might be worthwhile for you to examine what in your comments gives us that impression.

That, and right on, Beastmaster. Excellent point.

viscousmemories · 02-04-2003, 04:26 PM

And on topic, a comment about the Primetime show from someone who actually knows Belladonna in real life:

Quote:

Before watching the show, I knew it would be a slanted, virtually slanderous piece of crap. Having seen it, I can confirm that it was even more idiotic and content-free than I thought it would be.

We were told the show's producers had been following Belladonna around for 2 years. I believe them, only in the sense that they met her when she first arrived, and interviewed her after she'd been in the business for awhile. See, here's where it fell apart for me: I know Belladonna. The magazine I work for has used her in numerous pictorials, and I interviewed her about three, maybe four months ago.

Based on her haircut in the interview segments with Diane Sawyer, and the baby fat still present in her face, Primetime's encounters with her had to have been conducted after she'd been in the business maybe 8 months�in other words, somewhere near the end of 2000 or the beginning of 2001. I can tell you, based on conversations I've had with her, and conversations my co-workers have had with her, at the AVN Awards in Las Vegas two weeks ago, that she's, at this point, quite happy with what she's doing, quite successful at it, and plans to stick around.

from http://mostlyweird.blogspot.com/200...rd_archive.html

Jackalope · 02-04-2003, 08:22 PM

Whoops, that link doesn't work. I'd have loved to read that article, too.

Xeluan · 02-04-2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by beastmaster

Love does not make the sex any better.

Now sex may enrich love, but love does not enrich sex.

Hmmm, my experience is that love can enrich sex.

I have nothing against hot monkey lurve type sex with no emotional ties. Been there and have some good memories.

I also have had some great sex that was enhanced by strong emotional ties (ie love). Therefore I find beastmaster's statement that love can't enrich sex puzzling and a wrong generalization IMHO.

Xeluan

tronvillain · 02-04-2003, 09:18 PM

Well, I would not say that love enriches sex in the sense that it makes the sex itself better, but there is definitely an additional emotional aspect to sex with someone you love, and perhaps that is what was meant by "sex enriches love."

tronvillain · 02-04-2003, 09:25 PM

The "article" is in the archives:

Quote:

Some questions I had after watching (questions any intelligent, observant viewer should be asking themselves):

1. If Belladonna is a poor, innocent Mormon girl corrupted by the Satanic pornographers, how does Diane Sawyer explain an 18-year-old showing up in L.A. already completely covered in tattoos? (The big one on her chest got prominent play, but she's also got huge ink on her arms, fingers, ankle and lower back). It should also be noted that Sawyer went out of her way to mention that Belladonna had dyed her hair "coal black," without telling the audience that the blond hair she had in the early photos was a bleach job. Remember, I've seen Belladonna naked. She's not a blond.

2. Speaking of tattoos, didja see the big one on her sister's chest? I'm sorry, but the Sinclair family was not, and is not, the Osmonds.

3. And how about the core assumption of all these "news" shows about porn - that nobody watching knows anything about the business? They always present porn like it's some alternate universe, even as they're talking about how much money it generates. Here's a hint - if it's a $10 billion a year business (and BTW, that number's been discredited all over the place), it's pretty good odds that some of the people watching Primetime Live are also porn viewers.

I shouldn't be as pissed as I am. None of it was surprising. Remember, Diane Sawyer, before she was a "journalist," was a Nixon speechwriter. From one type of right-wing propaganda to another.

*chuckle*

Xeluan · 02-04-2003, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain
Well, I would not say that love enriches sex in the sense that it makes the sex itself better, but there is definitely an additional emotional aspect to sex with someone you love, and perhaps that is what was meant by "sex enriches love."

True. But I think the idea can be easily turned around to say that love enriches sex. However I'm aware that this argument is very subjective and based solely on my experience. YMMV of course.

Xeluan

Viti · 02-04-2003, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jackalope
Whoops, that link doesn't work. I'd have loved to read that article, too.

It's not really an article, just a guy posting
http://mostlyweird.blogspot.com/2003...d_archive.html

There's an article here
http://ainews.com/story/4391/
that references a video interview where Belladonna discusses the Primetime show

Here's the video interview

HardcoreSource

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02-04-2003, 03:41 PM	#211
viscousmemories Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,387	luvluv, For the sake of clarification, let me start by explaining my two previous posts. In the first one, I was trying to give an example of how social condemnation of certain sexual activities frequently has the unfortunate side-effect of demeaning and humiliating the victim. I probably wasn't clear on that, but that was the point of my story. I was ashamed of what transpired, because (for any of you who haven't had the experience) someone performing oral sex on you has a way of making you feel really good, and when you are later told by EVERYONE in your life that what happened was sick and wrong and dirty, it is quite likely you will feel sick and wrong and dirty for having enjoyed it. In retrospect, how do I feel about what my mother did? Well, use your best judgement to figure it out. I clearly needed someone to explain to me what had happened and what these feelings I had were all about. My Mother called the police. How much of a positive effect do you think that had? As for my second post, well, I was admittedly inflamed by your response and therefore not as kind as I would have liked to have been in saying what I said. However, I formulated the gist of those points last night as I read through this thread, I just phrased them a little less kindly because I was angry. However, your response to me was a case in point. I reacted emotionally, and verbally attacked you for your comment, and your response was calm, succint, even-tempered and incomplete. I expected nothing more. That is just the kind of zombie-like response I've gotten from my debates with christians all my life. However, I want to be perfectly clear that you aren't fooling me with that veneer. Your disgust with sex and your seething hatred for the men and women who have expressed their open-mindedness about their sexual appetites and practices in this thread have made it clear that your entire argument is a facade for what your real opinion is. You will get much more support, I suspect, if you just say what you mean. Of course, if you say what you really mean, there are likely to be a number of people here who think that you are completely insane. That's okay, Man. Have the courage of your convictions and let it out. In answer to what you claim is your ultimate underlying question about the moral implications of masturbating to an image of an exploited woman, I will side with Silent Acorns and say how could something possibly be immoral that occurs in the privacy of your own home, with no feedback given to the creator of the image as to your accquistion or use of it? (Sorry if that's not an accurate portrayal of your statement, SA.) Again, I implore you to take the high road and attack freedom of sexual expression on the whole, instead of hiding behind your flimsy argument that you are simply against the exploitation of women in pornography. In the many subtle jabs you have made at LadyShea and COAS throughout this thread, it is painfully evident that you don't really have the slightest concern for the women who are involved in the industry.

02-04-2003, 04:03 PM	#213
viscousmemories Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,387	luvluv, I'd just like to add this one thing: I have heard you say that you have nothing against sex, that it's pornography that you have a problem with, not sex. We have all heard you. You clearly have a hard time believing we hear you because you keep repeating it in every post. So now that you have surely noticed that many people here believe you truly don't like sex, regardless of your claims that you do, it might be worthwhile for you to examine what in your comments gives us that impression. That, and right on, Beastmaster. Excellent point.

02-04-2003, 08:22 PM	#215
Jackalope Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Hayward, CA, USA Posts: 1,675	Whoops, that link doesn't work. I'd have loved to read that article, too.

02-04-2003, 09:18 PM	#217
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Well, I would not say that love enriches sex in the sense that it makes the sex itself better, but there is definitely an additional emotional aspect to sex with someone you love, and perhaps that is what was meant by "sex enriches love."

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