The_Unknown_Banana

lol - hi!
Partly, though I actually found TWeb through infidels - just posted there first It's also a nice change to be in a place which is likely to have more people with similar thinking to mine

The_Unknown_Banana

agreed, however it is only within the show that we are concerned about. (ie. we are looking at it from the show's characters POVs, as far as I followed this conversation anyway).

Quote:

But it is relevant! The Buffy writers are being compared to the xian god. The xian god is allegedly omnipotent, and the Buffy writers are not. Therefore the analogy fails as an argument. If you scroll up and read this thread, you'll see that this ground has been covered before. Mediancat was not even trying to argue for or against anything in his OP, which still leaves me completely confused as to why he wrote it. Sincerely, Goliath

Say for the sake of this argument that the writers did make a flawless storyline, and the fans defense of each imperfection was in fact correct. They would still seem like imperfections/contradictions to non-fans, who would remain incredulous to their defense. This is, I believe, the point of the analagy.

Of course this is unlikely. Imo, the bible is actually comparative to this show. If you don't believe in God, then the bible will appear to be just a collection of books written by humans, and therefore it would be possible for it to contain errors. Just like if the fans have faith in the writer's abilities, religious people have faith in their God, and the apparent errors seem to just smooth out. (Whether or not they were errors in the first place)

Phew, what a long winded explanation of an analagy! Hope it made sense.

wade-w

I think the point here is to make an attempt to understand the rationale behind apologetics. To us, it seems obvious that the Bible is chock full of inconsistencies and outright contradictions. But believers seem unable to see them. The anaolgy was an attempt to illustrate a possible explanation for this behavior. I think it works quite well, myself. After all, isn't the Bible just as fictitious as Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

Biff the unclean

The problem with the analogy of God to the writers of Buffy is that God isn't the creator. God is a character in the novel. Just like Buffy has writers God had writers. What Buffy has that God doesn't is somebody to check facts and continuity. That's why there are fewer mistakes in Buffy's story than there are in God's novel.
It's easy enough to see that the God Book is a novel because the character has abilities that only occur in fiction and limitations that never occur in reality.
One sure sign is that the character God has superpowers. Everybody loves to see superpowers. But they only happen in fiction. In fiction we all saw Chris Reeve fly through the air, crash into the ground and pick up the San Andreas Fault on his shoulders. In reality the poor guy was done in because he fell a few feet off the back of a horse.
Another sign of being fictional is being able to do the impossible. God makes a hobby of doing the impossible. William Shatner flies between the stars in only a few days without even messing his "hair" But they don't call the impossible "impossible" for nothing. In reality it not only doesn't happen, it can't happen. In fiction it happens all the time, but only in fiction.

One big limitation that fictional characters have is they can't be seen or heard or sensed in any way…obviously because they don't exist. You can see the actress who plays Buffy but you can't see Buffy herself. Want to meet James Bond? Never gonna happen, there isn't any James Bond outside of the books and movies. He's fictional, he's not respecting your "free will".
No person, or thing, in reality has this limitation. It's specific to the fictional.

Then there's the problem that is also specific to fiction that happens when there are teams of writers who are lazy. You get poor character development. Take the Jesus character in some parts of the book he's an absolute genius, and a nicer guy you couldn't want to meet. But in other parts he's an idiot and as mean and nasty as can be. A sure sign that Jesus is a fictional character…a poorly written fictional character.
Then there is the fiction specific problem of plot development. All the writers know that the hero Jesus is supposed to save everybody, but they don't check with one another as to how he's supposed to do it. One group gives him the superpower called "grace." The other group decides to work in a moral and before Jesus rides off into the sunset he tells all the little buckaroos that they will be saved if they are good boys and girls--works vs grace.
Then there is the problem that only fiction has of lack of fact checking. The Super hero God creates the sky and the stars and the oceans and the land in the story. But the writers got it all wrong. None of these bears any resemblance to reality so we know for sure that the story is fictional.

But need I add that none of these problems keep these fictional stories from having fans (Fan is a shortened form of the word "fanatic") The absolute devotion of the crowds at a Star Trek convention is identical to those at a revival.

Biff the unclean

Tonight on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
The Riemann Hypothesis solved at last.

Scene: out doors, night, downtown Sunnydale

( C ) Ha…ha…ha… Gooood eve-a-ning my dear Buffy
( B ) Why, it's the Count
( C ) Yeeeees…..1….2…3…4
( B ) The Count from Sesame Street! Aren't you a puppet?
( C ) Never mind that now, I'll explain later. I have brought you vonderful newssss. I have solved the Riemann Hypothesis
( B ) I don't believe you

Count whips open his cape to reveal largish yellow plastic box

( C) It ess true. Ha…ha..ha. Heere look upon my Big Bird electric pocket calculator

Buffy takes calculator from the Count's one functioning hand and stares at it is disbelief. Holding its back to the camera

( B ) Why it's true
( C ) Ha…ha…ha
( B) You have solved the Riemann Hypothesis. And it was so simple, why didn't we think of this before…

She is interrupted by high-pitched music and sparkling lights

( M ) Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor not a space time continuum repair man.
( C ) One Star Fleet Officer…ha…ha..ha
( M ) I'll take that Big Bird Calculator young lady. It breaks the prime directive to have it in the twentieth century
( B ) Twenty first
( M ) Damn it, I'm a doctor not an historian

McCoy transports as the Count counts the number of trans dimensional photons that are flashing

Amaranth

Biff, that was absolutely wrong. I'm going to go blow the Pepsi the rest of the way out of my nose, then get to whiping off my desktop now....

Biff the unclean

The Exciting Adventures of SuperJew!!!

When we last saw them Aaron, Louis and the rest of the Jews were trapped.
( L ) Oh Aaron what will we do?! The army of Egypt is charging straight at us and we are blocked by the sea!!! Is there no escape?
( A ) Gee Louis, I'm too meek and timid to even think.
( L ) If only your brother Moses were here!! Hey, why is it I've never seen the two of you together?
( A ) I'll explain later. But I'm so frightened that I have to lie down.
( L ) Oh Aaron you are such a wimp. I could never love you.
( A ) I know Louis, I know.

Aaron walks to tent. Looks over his shoulder to see if Louis is watching, whips off he glasses and rushes inside

SX: Woooosh!!!
( S ) This looks like a job for SuperJew !!!
( L ) Holy Moses, it's SuperJew. SuperJew save us, the villains are almost here.
( S ) Stand back Louis while I use my super grace of God power to part these waters.
( L ) Oh SuperJew you are wonderful. If only Aaron could see this. Where is he anyway? He always misses the good stuff.
( S ) I'll explain later Louis. First I've got some Egyptians who are crying out for a soaking
SX: Woooosh!!!
( L ) Oh, SuperJew!

Goliath

The_Unknown_Banana,

Is it? I thought the analogy concerned fans of the show. You do agree that fans of a television show usually exist outside of the show, do you not?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath

Biff the Unclean,

ROFL! I'd love to see a "SuperJew" comic.

Now to be the picker of nits that I am. I doubt that the Riemann Hypothesis can be proven by a machine (and if you create a machine that can prove theorems, then please give it to me, destroy any copies, and never tell anyone else that such a machine exists. ) Also, as I said before, I'd only be impressed if the characters presented a full proof, from beginning to end, with all of the details.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Biff the unclean

Also, as I said before, I'd only be impressed if the characters presented a full proof, from beginning to end, with all of the details.
But this gets back directly to my contention that the bible shows itself to be a work of fiction for the same reason that any TV show or novel does.
When I wrote my Buffy episode I put the Big Bird children's calculator so that the audience couldn't see it. Then I made sure it disappeared.
I could have followed a different tact. I could have simply made up an answer like Douglas Adam's famous "47" and then bluffed my way through it. The sci fi writers that wrote the bible did that. They had their superhero create the universe. But they had no more of a clue as to what the universe is than I do the Riemann Hypothesis. So they made it up and bluffed.
Now we know that the writers got it all wrong. The time it took is wrong, the shape of the Earth and Sky are wrong. On top of that superhero God makes it by saying a magic word. They didn't even know what stars are. So we know it's fiction because if was fact God would know what it looked like. What we have is even sillier than "47."

Now what the writers should have done was have Adam ask---
"Hey God? This is nice. Did you make it?"
"Yeah, I designed it and made it all myself. Picked out the colors and everything."
"Wow, nice. I really like the way the greens and the blues go together.'
"Thank you. Gabriel thought up ochre."
"Well, it's really something alright. How did you do it?"
"I'll explain that later, first I want to tell you about a certain tree..." (break to commercial)

See if they did that the writers could have covered the fact that they didn't really know what they were talking about.