GeoTheo

This may not be the right forum for a discussion like this but I still think there would be more to it than that. I see what you mean about it being a problem for literal interpretation, but for myself and other Christians I know their is an experiential element that is a part of their faith. A big part of it is believed to be the idwelling of the Holy Spirit which causes growth as a person, known as the friut of the Spirit.
If somthing caused you to experience growth as a person and a more abundant life how could that be totally contingent on the existence of dead mollusks before Genesis chapter two? Hadn't you ever met any Christians before who believed in evolution?
Feel free to e-mail me privately if you wish.

WinAce

Good point. If beliefs in god or driving universal forces can provide concrete benefits, and the person doesn't mind taking it on faith as well as respecting the beliefs of others, I really see no problem with it. I might value strong, scientific evidence more than subjective, religious experience, but that's not for me to decide because it can frankly be very convincing until you dig deeper.

Personally, I find my own beliefs constantly revised and challenged. This provides intellectual growth and far outweighs the possible benefit of any assurances that I'll be eventually reunited with some long-dead loved ones, or that everything will ultimately be set right by a loving god (especially since that happens in fiction, not real life, and this god doesn't appear too loving unless you selectively ignore some parts of the Bible, which really makes it more logical to just give up the rest and become a Deist or agnostic...)

The other argument--morality--is a bad one, because humanist ethics are generally significantly more 'Christian' than that held by Christians.

BTW, if anyone wants to read the hilarious discussion entitled Round-Earthism vs. Flat-Earthism on BlizzForums, in which I managed to make up as many stupid ad hoc explanations to wash away directly contradicting evidence as AiG does, go <a href="http://www.blizzforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=796" target="_blank">here</a>.

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: WinAce ]</p>

Coragyps

Next time we get low on trolls over here, do you think you could get Elric to visit?

scigirl

Wow WinAce, I could have used you when I was writing my thesis a while back!



scigirl

WinAce

I don't think Elric would be interested in defending his beliefs on this forum. I've been involved in numerous debates with him (Evolution vs. Creationism, Biblical inerrancy, logical contradictions and paradoxes created by Christian theology), and he simply can't admit being wrong, EVER.

He's the type of guy that would continue believing in that stuff even if Jesus came back and told him he's wrong and everyone's going to heaven so long as they're not a serial killer.

I and other infidels have their work cut out for us because these people totally depend on public ignorance to have their ideas accepted. Once that is dispelled, their beliefs often collapse under the weight of the tiny apologetics patches used to fix France-sized holes in them

I'd love to write a thesis as well, but will have to hold off until I go to college, which might take a few years. Science is quite interesting, and I would want to do actual research on the application of genetic algorithms in medicine later on.

With faster computers, better programming and more data, they just might be able to solve problems ranging from protein-folding to making unlimited, highly effective new antibiotics and anti-cancer drugs (i.e., analyzing the genome of a particular germ, then simulating various chemicals attacking it to see which one is most effective with less side effects, then mutating, recombining and repeating). They could also conceivably be used to quickly and efficiently test retroviral vectors for gene therapy

Genetic algorithms and nanotechnology are going to be the next big things if we get them to work right...

I wouldn't want to go to a college that teaches Intelligent Design, and I dislike people that insist their contradictory beliefs are better than other contradictory beliefs, so I'm forced to debate them everywhere for the benefit of the lurkers. Hopefully we'll have a few more agnostics instead of Protestants later on

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: WinAce ]</p>

Stephen T-B

It’s a sad and shocking fact GeoTheo, that what you or I or my mother-in-law prefer to be real has absolutely nothing to do with what is real.
I would prefer to be descended from a super-intelligent alien than from a single-cell amoeba. but that’s as pointless as saying I would prefer to have come to work by private helicopter rather than on a bicycle.
To prefer the helicopter hypothesis doesn’t make it real, no more than believing in it does.
And that, GeoTheo, precisely illuminates the difference between the Creationists and the Realists.

excreationist

Winace:
When AiG has a Christian audience, they usually quote from the Bible using verses that clearly show that their beliefs are right. So to properly copy AiG you could do that as well...

GeoTheo:
Well at university I had to read a book called <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0767400135/102-1625552-2370549" target="_blank">How to think about weird things</a> - it was about how to think critically about things and it had alternative explanations for many supposedly supernatural phenomenon. So I was quite familiar with non-supernatural explanations for mystical experiences, etc, that I had in the past.
Also, at university it wasn't convenient for me to go to church and I didn't have much time for things like that. Also, in my later years at high-school I didn't really know many strong believers - there were only a couple - at my Lutheran school - but there were also some teachers. At our school we had chapel about twice a week and no-one sang - except for the teachers and sometimes some girls, and I practically always did - although I have a quiet voice.
I never learnt about praying for answers if I had doubts... when I was researching creationism I did it all by myself. In other things I looked to God for help but when I was seeking answers I never realized that I could ask God for answers. Maybe it was because I had been complimented so much about how smart *I* was.

scombrid

Actually, It's kind of humbling to realize that I'm no more significant than any other chunk of DNA floating around out here.

Arrogant is believing that you are the reason for the Universe existing. Arrogant is believing that you are the bestest buddy of the creator of the universe that was created for you. Arrogant is knowing the truth(tm) without evidence and insisting that others obey that truth or be smitten by god. Only god doesn't do the smiting, the true believers(tm) do it for him.

scigirl

scombrid, that was beautiful.

scigirl

Coragyps

Scombrid: a second to scigirl, and to lapse into the vernacular: Fuckin' A!! That mirrors my thoughts since I was about 13, but I never could get it that succinct. Thanks.