joedad

Actually, people who use this response, that you don't "believe in anything," are using ethical as opposed to metaphysical language. Ethically, nihilism is the rejection of all distinctions in moral value, constituting a willingness to refute all previous theories of morality. (American Heritage Dictionary)
Metaphysically, nihilism is the doctrine that nothing exists, is knowable, or can be communicated.

If someone wishes to call me an ethical nihilist because they believe that only their god is the foundation of any and all morality, and that as an atheist I reject their god, I do not argue much with such folks, unless I see some genuine curiosity. But I have had some extensive conversations with people who affirmed the fact that I could be moral and atheistic both, but still chose to distinguish their belief that even though I was "moral" in their eyes, I really had no "foundation" for my morality! Give me a break!

As I said, metaphysical nihilism is a different matter. Ex nihilo creationists, for example, are metaphysical nihilists, but simply unaware of their position.

People look for causes for everything until you ask them for a cause for their god. This is where the thought process usually short-circuits, and the double standard is invoked. In short, gods don't need a cause, only everything else. Actually it's something that most people are so used to spouting, they've just never thought about what they're saying. I think people do this because to see the Universe as eternal just doesn't seem to make sense at first. Only when one reflects upon the distinct fact that we are quite incapable of "creating "even a single electron or quark or quanta, will he begin to appreciate the argument that the Universe is as eternal – in some form or other – as "eternal" gets.

I'm told quite often that I was "created" by a god. But in actuality, I am the assemblage of organic and non organic compounds already present within the Universe. I didn't simply POOF into existence, and will just as simply not POOF away. I require the stuff of the Universe in order to survive. There is nothing supernatural to observe in my bodily makeup. I AM the Universe. Shut off the food, oxygen, water, etc. and I die. But I sure don't leave the Universe. In short, I was never created, but I WAS assembled.

My religious upbringing – catholic – taught ex nihilo creationism, literally, creation "from nothing." My former religion, therefore, must provisionally embrace metaphysical nihilism within its theology. It is forced to equate the entire Universe/Cosmos with nihility, or nothingness, complete nonexistence, whereas a pantheist, for example, does not have this nihilistic baggage.

In creating the equation Universe = nihility, I have shown many people how it is they who are the nihilists for embracing a theology which violates the tenet, "matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed," a tenet which we can readily verify everyday. It's really quite simple for me to understand today, but getting used to the fact that the Universe needn't have been created ex nihilo took some serious deconditioning time.

joe

[ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: joedad ]</p>

galiel

joedad:

Wow! I have never heard it stated quite that way. An excellent, logically consistent argument and very well put.

(Will not sway irrational believers, I am afraid, but will be fun to see them sputter, at least)

Perchance

Hi joedad,

I'm curious (since this is an argument I've heard a number of times):

How do you argue with people who insist that souls leave the universe for some afterlife? I've encountered an awful lot of people who believe that the "soul" (conveniently undefined, pretty much like faith) is not subject to the laws of matter and energy, that it was specially created, and that it can depart the limits of the universe for "something outside." The believers get pretty vague on where the place is, of course.

Does nihilism come into this?

-Perchance.

abe smith

If AMOS's assertion ^^^^ aloft-there that "God exists[only?} in human minds " is TRUE, then everytime a human mind's brain rots after death does Amos's "god" die? Hey wow, man! Is that the case for all human "gods"? Or only for Amos's (very peculiar allegedly- RC) god? Wow! the illogicalities inherent in nearly everything he says make this the world's best hunting country! Amos, does that mean that your "god" did not begin to exist until after human beings existed? WOW!

Amos

So now don't tell me Abe that you want to take God with you when you die or are you trying to deny something that is impossible to be realized because it does not exist? Would that not drive you crazy?

I think it is just great that we can be God in our own right and be in charge of our own destiny until we die.

Yes you are correct. My God was not until I was born and will be no more after I die. Nobody owes me anything and I am free to go.

Is there somebody in your life that owes you an explantion in this regard or do you just take things as they come about?

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

joedad

Hello Perchance,

I've been into some fairly long discussions with catholics particularly, who believe very strongly in souls and supernature. I've been told that entities like souls and God are:

non biological

non physical

beyond natural law

beyond observation

(and a few more I cannot recall)

I really don't know how to dialogue seriously with someone who insists on being privy to such knowledge. Someone who claims to have knowledge of things "not subject to the laws of matter and energy," needs to demonstrate the reality of such abilities imo, and that's usually where the conversation stalls.

I think people generally have a difficulty dealing with their own death. Believing that they are immortal and bound for a paradise is certainly one fix. But if in order to have this immortality, I must violate rational and reasonable thinking about everyday life, I should think that a red flag or two ought to go up. For some this is obviously the case, but not for most. Most buy into the comforting thought that personal immortality is an actuality.

If: God + nihility = God + everything
then: nihility = everything

A soul, therefore, not being part of the god, also requires that one be a provisional nihilist to accept such a concept, I would think.

Personally, I've never associated belief in a soul with nihilism. I am fairly certain, however, that people who believe in souls might find it disturbing to know that they are metaphysical nihilists, if in fact their theology makes it so.

But I do get some satisfaction having demonstrated that the Universe is at least as eternal as their creator beings, that is, unless they choose to think of themselves as nihilists. As the association is seen as quite pejorative in their view, especially when I have convinced them that we are both equally "moral," I feel that I have achieved parity between THE universe and THEIR creator being, and I see this as progress, maybe even a smallish victory.

My idea of an "afterlife" does not entail belief in anything supernatural, and imho is actually quite a decent concept. Having to possibly go through the pain of death still bothers me somewhat, but my one-time fear of being dead is no more. Death to me is simply unconscious sleep, same as before birth. I have put aside vane thoughts of an eternal glorification and reward in some heavenly paradise. Indeed, to not think seriously about human affairs beyond one's own lifetime is quite selfish, another good reason to write off the paradise myth and all it's trappings.

joe

And, Hey! Thanks for the notice!

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: joedad ]</p>

Jamie_L

In some other threads, Dr S described his atheism in a way that really clicked with me, and hit at the heart of these sorts of debates (in my opinion). That description went something like this:

I don't disbelieve any gods, because I have never been presented with any gods.

I have been presented with STORIES about gods, told by people.

I do not believe these stories are true.

This hardly qualifies as a religion, since I certainly have no stories of my own in this area (at least, none that I claim are true). My disbelief in their stories is also not based on faith. It is based on comparing all these stories to my actual experiences, to logic, to evidence, etc. So far, I have been given no reason to believe the stories are true.

Suppose someone tells you that today is Wednesday, yet you know that yesterday was Wednesday. When you choose to not believe today is Wednesday, are you doing so on faith?

Jamie

Perchance

Hi joedad,

That is an interesting way to conceptualize it. I'll have to remember that, the next time someone starts insisting on souls as non-natural as a "fact." .

I suppose this is one of those confusing words (just like "faith" and "atheist"), and it gets further confused in, for example, poetry, where it sometimes takes on the same meaning as heart and sometimes as personality and sometimes as character. Sometimes I wish I could force the theist I'm arguing with to define the concept and notice how little is actually there- but it's not considered polite to nag the theist to define terms until he or she gives up in sheer desperation.

I, too, think of death as a kind of sleep- or oblivion, perhaps, since I don't think there will be any dreams. I wouldn't really want my mortal concerns following me around forever. I just KNOW I would be be one of those people who wake up in Heaven saying, "Did I clean out the cat's litter box before I went?"

And you're welcome.

-Perchance.

Autonemesis

To be sure, if the Hallmark card urges us to obtain the wisdom to know the difference, the wisdom to know the difference must be available to us.

To be sure, if the horoscope urges us to obtain to confidence of a business associate for an important project, the confidence of a business associate must be available to us.

To be sure, if the fortune cookie urges us to obtain insurance, insurance must be available to us.

To be sure, if the matchbook cover urges us to obtain the pleasure of a blonde bimbo, the pleasure of a blonde bimbo must be available to us.

To be sure, if the Quran urges us to obtain our place in Paradise by believing in Allah and his prophet Mohammed, our place in Paradise must be available to us.

To be sure, if the Yellow Pages urges us to obtain a licensed, bonded plumber, a licensed, bonded plumber must be available to us.

Amos

Exactly King Bud and from here we can look for the evidence of a true religion within its own members.

Have you ever heard a protestant tell you that we must obtain the mind of God before we die so we know who we are?