Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Devilnaut · 08-15-2002, 02:38 PM

Walrus:

Quote:

I don't mean to sound condescending but maybe this rhetorical question will give you a clue: How do both humans and birds dodge falling objects without knowledge of the mathematical laws of gravity?

Heheheh...

It doesn't take a mathematician to guess that if something has fallen four feet towards your head, that it will probably continue for that extra foot right into it.

Did you seriously just type that question?? After acting so condescending to Dr S no less. Sometimes you're good for a laugh, WJ.

Devilnaut · 08-15-2002, 02:40 PM

OJ:

Quote:

I do believe that hostile spirits (don't like the word devil) are real.

Why?

Autonemesis · 08-15-2002, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
I don't mean to sound condescending...

Yes, you do.

Long before we humans figured out why things fall, things did indeed fall. Experience allows people to dodge falling objects. Knowledge of gravity allows us to construct falling objects that don't hit the ground.

Demigawd · 08-15-2002, 02:49 PM

I used to believe in "hostile spirits" as well until I spent several nights alone in an old house that groaned every couple of minutes or so. And it had nice, menacing trees in the yard that cast very ominous shadows through windows via the moonlight.

I really like Doctor S's summary of the beta male creating a problem then "solving" the problem to gain preferential treatment. Sounds alot like eternal damnation solved by eternal salvation.

Ojuice5001 · 08-15-2002, 03:46 PM

Devilnaut,

Well, one reason is the subject of this thread--the origin of religion. Religion started out as an attempt to negotiate with friendly and hostile spirits, and this fact makes much more sense if friendly and hostile spirits exist.

<a href="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0018.html" target="_blank">In this essay,</a> Peter Kreeft gives some other reasons to believe in hostile spirits. The best reason, I think, is what he says about the making of The Exorcist. Not being a Christian, I can't agree with everything Kreeft says, but I have a lot of respect for him.

Mageth · 08-15-2002, 03:52 PM

Religion started out as an attempt to negotiate with friendly and hostile spirits, and this fact makes much more sense if friendly and hostile spirits exist.

Why does it make much more sense? Since we have absolutely no evidence that friendly or hostile spirits exists (only people's superstitions), it makes more sense to me that someone invented the idea of spirits in the past, for reasons as explained in the OP or some other reason.

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

Demigawd · 08-15-2002, 04:06 PM

"friendly and hostile spirits"

What are these spirits? What do they do? How does one perceive them?

Spirits, according to the various mythologies I've read, are responsible for things such as wind, disease, inspiration, etc. Basically, all the things that happened that humans, throughout history, couldn't explain demonstrably.

"I broke off this branch." - a human explaining why he has a twig in his hand.

"Air spirits broke off that branch." - a human explaining why a twig broke off a tree while a strong wind was blowing.

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Demigawd ]

Ojuice5001 · 08-15-2002, 04:15 PM

They are intelligent beings made up of something other than matter. They affect random events like the weather, the fortunes of disease organisms, and decisions that are made very quickly. They are perceived, more or less, with certain kinds of emotional or mental experience.

Your second paragraph is basically the refutation of God of the gaps. I started a thread today (that has gone unanswered so far

) which argues that there are other ways to interpret supernaturalism than God of the gaps (and, of course, mine is more rational). I would certainly want someone to reply to it.

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]

Dr S · 08-15-2002, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Demigawd:
Sounds alot like eternal damnation solved by eternal salvation.

It's exactly the same thing.
A false leopard-in this case hell after you are dead. And you are saved by a make believe god- saved after you are dead. HA!
Notice that you have no way to know that you are in danger unless the pseudo-alpha tells you. Likewise you have no way to know that you have been rescued until he presents the bill.
Things like the wind spirit you mentioned-you stop them from blowing down your house by sacrificing a pig. However it's the shaman (pseudo-alpha) who gets the pork chops.

If you've ever seen the Vatican you know that people will pay good money to be saved from leopards that aren't really there.

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Dr S ]

Devilnaut · 08-15-2002, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001:

They are intelligent beings made up of something other than matter. They affect random events like the weather, the fortunes of disease organisms, and decisions that are made very quickly. They are perceived, more or less, with certain kinds of emotional or mental experience.

So you've inferred the above, from this:

Quote:

Ojuice:

Religion started out as an attempt to negotiate with friendly and hostile spirits, and this fact makes much more sense if friendly and hostile spirits exist.

Is that correct?

08-15-2002, 03:52 PM	#16
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Religion started out as an attempt to negotiate with friendly and hostile spirits, and this fact makes much more sense if friendly and hostile spirits exist. Why does it make much more sense? Since we have absolutely no evidence that friendly or hostile spirits exists (only people's superstitions), it makes more sense to me that someone invented the idea of spirits in the past, for reasons as explained in the OP or some other reason. [ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

08-15-2002, 04:06 PM	#17
Demigawd Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place Posts: 2,254	"friendly and hostile spirits" What are these spirits? What do they do? How does one perceive them? Spirits, according to the various mythologies I've read, are responsible for things such as wind, disease, inspiration, etc. Basically, all the things that happened that humans, throughout history, couldn't explain demonstrably. "I broke off this branch." - a human explaining why he has a twig in his hand. "Air spirits broke off that branch." - a human explaining why a twig broke off a tree while a strong wind was blowing. [ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Demigawd ]</p>

08-15-2002, 04:15 PM	#18
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	They are intelligent beings made up of something other than matter. They affect random events like the weather, the fortunes of disease organisms, and decisions that are made very quickly. They are perceived, more or less, with certain kinds of emotional or mental experience. Your second paragraph is basically the refutation of God of the gaps. I started a thread today (that has gone unanswered so far ) which argues that there are other ways to interpret supernaturalism than God of the gaps (and, of course, mine is more rational). I would certainly want someone to reply to it. [ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]</p>

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08-15-2002, 02:49 PM	#14
Demigawd Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place Posts: 2,254	I used to believe in "hostile spirits" as well until I spent several nights alone in an old house that groaned every couple of minutes or so. And it had nice, menacing trees in the yard that cast very ominous shadows through windows via the moonlight. I really like Doctor S's summary of the beta male creating a problem then "solving" the problem to gain preferential treatment. Sounds alot like eternal damnation solved by eternal salvation.

08-15-2002, 03:46 PM	#15
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Devilnaut, Well, one reason is the subject of this thread--the origin of religion. Religion started out as an attempt to negotiate with friendly and hostile spirits, and this fact makes much more sense if friendly and hostile spirits exist. <a href="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0018.html" target="_blank">In this essay,</a> Peter Kreeft gives some other reasons to believe in hostile spirits. The best reason, I think, is what he says about the making of The Exorcist. Not being a Christian, I can't agree with everything Kreeft says, but I have a lot of respect for him.

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