AJ113

Please define "shun" in this context.

Needless speculation? I have witnessed two close friends who are atheists re-defining their moral standards in order to justify their already-committed actions. These two friends are not the only people I have witnessed doing this.

Thus, on the basis of empirical evidence, and by extrapolation, I have come to the conclusion that the personal definition of morals is a major attraction of atheism.

If you take offence at this, I apologise. There is no offence intended. Speaking as a Christian, I would say that it is one of atheism's strongest attractions, if atheism was ever going to tempt me away from my beliefs.

No.

AJ113

I have experiences of this type every day.

God is spirit and so communication with him tends to be spiritual. I can understand your skepticism because communication with God is empirical only for the individual who is engaged in such communication.

Yes.

ex-preacher

Are you under the strong delusion that Christians do not re-define their moral standards in order to justify their already committed behavior? If so, you don't know very many Christians. Have you ever done that very thing? As a preacher, I knew many ministers who got out of paying Social Security taxes by falsely claiming that it was against their conscience. But they were able to justify it by rationalizating that it was better stewardship to stay out of SS.

<strong> What BS! Do you know what "empirical evidence" is? You are using anecdotal evidence - the worst kind. And a very limited sample. Add me to your sample. I became an atheist in part because I was sickened by the immorality of the God of the Bible who murders infants. I also find any god who would allow tornadoes, AIDS, and Alzheimers' to be immoral. Believe it or not, my wife (who is still a Christian) and many friends think I am more moral now than I was as a Christian.

<strong> If so, you are a sick and truly immoral person. Please remain a theist if your religion is the only thing keeping you moral.

Morality: doing the right thing, no matter what you're told.

Religion: doing what you're told, no matter what the right thing is.

Philosoft

Ex-preacher has already done a fine job with this post, but right now I'm feeling a bit saucy...


shun - To avoid deliberately; keep away from.

<strong> Now, have they told you they have done this? (hint: trick question) Or is this your own detective work?

<strong> I'm going to assume these people aren't trying to justify past murders or rapes or things of that magnitude. What are they trying to justify? One-night-stands? Lying to their spouses? Are these really the things you think can motivate someone to give up his whole belief system?

<strong> Not even a nice try. Take a statistics class sometime.

<strong> How can you not intend something that you suspect the outcome of? Perhaps you mean you weren't entirely motivated by offending me?

<strong> Then, by all means, remain a Christian for the rest of your days. I don't suppose you realize what this tells about you and your belief system.

I wrote: AJ replied: <strong> You must be an unparalleled observer of moral behavior and its hidden causes if you know exactly why your friends altered their moral systems.

AJ113

No. People who do this would struggle to be classified as Christians IMO.

No. Although, because I am not perfect, I have on countless occasions failed to adhere to Christian morals.

You are using anecdotal evidence, the worst kind

I'm sorry, I am not conversant with the American tax system, but if these people were illegally avoiding payment of taxes, and then attempting to justify it, then it appears to me that they perhaps were not adhering to Christian morals.

Yes. It is knowledge gained from experience.

It is anecdotal for you, but empirical for me, just like your statement above. I think that many of our beliefs and opinions are formed on the basis of personal experience. Don't you?

I take this as an ad-hominem.

For what purpose? And how do you define "right?"

I'll take your word for it. I'm no expert on religion.

Vorkosigan

AJ: I do not say that all atheists live their lives in this fashion, I say that, in my experience, the facility is avilable, and some atheists avail themselves of it.

I note that Christians can do anything and then get forgiveness for it. I do not say that all Christians are immoral, but the facility is available, and some Christians avail themselves of it.

Vorkosigan

AJ113

Perhaps, but the morals remain the same, as defined by Christ, so that a Christian can easily identify when he has gone astray.

This is not the same is re-defining morals to suit.

AJ113

Now that I have your definition of "shun" I can give you my answer.

No.

No. I already answered this.

Yes, yes and yes.

I am not posting on this forum with the intention of getting involved with philosophical, logical or mathematical arguments. I am posting in order to give my opinions, and the reasons why I have those opinions.

Have you ever started a sentence with: "Don't take this the wrong way, but......?" If you have, then that will explain how you can not intend something that you suspect the outcome of.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this.

What it tells me is that Satan is forever gnawing away at my integrity, intent on bringing me down with his temptations.

I don't think it takes much skill to evaluate people. Don't you do this yourself?

free12thinker

Whose morals are being re-defined? I think Philsoft was getting at this as well. There are plenty of things that Christianity (among other religions) deems immoral, yet no one can offer any insight as to why they are indeed immoral. So if someone is homosexual, does this mean they are re-definind morals to suit them, if they decide to act on their desires for the same sex?

Morals defined by Christ are usually just that: Defined by Christ, with no justification as to the reason they are deemed immoral.

Philosoft

Really? Even the intent of the 'kill' commandment is in dispute. Is it 'kill' or 'murder'? You can't just sneak the True Christian(tm) assertion in whenever you like. Christians disagree tremendously over the interpretation of much of the moral code.

<strong> Perhaps not, but the effects of interpretation are obvious.