Biff the unclean

Does anyone on this forum believe that Jesus was not a Jew?
That's actually a good question.
Jesus birth is a reenactment of the demigod Mithra's birth. Right down to Mithric Priests (Magi) showing up. Magis but no Rabbis.
He gets circumcised which is pretty Jewish, but then he gets baptized so you are right back to the Magi again. He misquotes the OT, so that's kind of Jewish. And he holds an incorrect Passover and that's it for any Jewish stuff. I'd say that the author meant for him to be Jewish but didn't know enough details about Judaism to include them in the novel.

Does anyone on this forum believe that Jesus did not believe He was a Jew? And that He thought He was fulfilling Judaism?
If he was supposed to think that he was the Jewish Messiah he certainly didn't act like it. Nowhere does he attempt to free the Jewish people from their Roman conquers. He says to give unto Caesar and even has a tax collector as one of his pals. He says that if your are struck…presumably by a Roman…you should let them belt you again. He portrays human suffering (at the hands of the Romans if this is taken in context) as a virtue. Nah, this is no Jewish Messiah. He even claims to be the son of a god and you can't get less Jewish and more Roman than that.

Does anyone on this forum disbelieve that a minor cult of Judaism did believe that Jesus was the Messiah in the 1st century?
Since the earliest copies we have of records of the early church date only from 325CE and were made by the Byzantine Romans what happened in the first century is anybody's guess.
A cult may have thought that Jesus was a demigod, one of the several Christs the Hellenists believed in.
But it would be near impossible not to notice the fact that the Romans were destroying and looting Israel, killing who they could and driving the rest into barbarian lands without hide nor hair of a Messiah saving them.

What is wrong with Magus saying he is a 1st century Jew?
It's a lie, is that wrong enough?
He's a member of a cult that didn't exist before the middle of the twentieth century whose teachings would be considered heresy to the early church that we know of. A cult whose sole purpose is the Christianization of Jews with the ultimate goal of eradicating Judaism.
Am I the only one here who reads news magazines and listens to public radio?

Legalism and nit picking gets a little stupid sometimes.
Apparently you think facts are pretty dopey too.

Wayne P

So why won't Magus answer these question? Magus made his statement quite succinctly when he said, and here it is yet again:

Better yet why don't you answer these questions?

1. Do christians believe in a divine Messiah?

2. Do Mainstream Jews believe in a divine Messiah?

3. Do Christians believe in salvation through Jesus?

4. Do Mainstream Jews believe in salvation through Jesus?

If the answers to 1 & 3 are yes and the answers to 2 & 4 are no then we have clear case of Magus lying, not only about his faith but about the faith of others.

I've seen no other thread here where Magus has compared himself to a 1st century Jew, it may be out there someplace and I just missed it, would someone let me know where it is.

But, even if he said that, it doesn't negate the fact that he HAS declared that the ONLY difference between himself and a Mainstream Jew is that they are waiting for the Messiah while Magus believes that the Messiah has already appeared.

The one thing I find ironic here is that you are spending time defending Magus when he, probably, believes that you, who are not a member of his fundie sect, will go straight to hell for what you believe in.

Christianity has split up into countless sects over the last 2,000 years and many of those splits were over arguments about what people call themselves and what they believe, and yet you think Atheist legalism is getting a little silly here.

yguy

Non-sequitur, because you presume that mainstream Jews who deny Jesus as Messiah are qualified to be arbiters of the Jewish faith. That faith is based on Mosaic law, in which no justification can be found for the denial of Jesus as Messiah as a prerequisite for being a member of that faith.

Biff the unclean

The only non-sequitur is coming from you yguy. the question was 2. Do Mainstream Jews believe in a divine Messiah? DIVINE Messiah. D*I*V*I*N*E as in a god.
The Jews only have a single god, not a triune one.
The Jews-all Jews-don't accept Jesus as their Messiah because not only have they no record that he even existed, but they weren't saved…the Romans won. Israel was destroyed.

Jews do occasionally convert to other religions. Many of the Hari Krishna kids you see hopping around in sheets at the airport were born into Jewish families.

What's so hard to accept about Magus converting to Southern Baptist? He now has a different type of god from the Jews. A god with different set of plans than the Jewish one has. A different set of scriptures from the Jews. Different Sabbath, different holy days, different after-life, different laws. Different definition about what a messiah is.
He used to be a Jew now he's given it up and joined a cult. Why do you insist he is still a Jew when he spits on everything the Jews hold sacred? What agenda are you trying to push? Why are you trying to mislead people about Judaism?

Wayne P

So Mainstream Jews are incapable of defining their own religion? It doesn't matter what millions of Mainstream Jews believe, it only matters what Magus believes! No wonder there are thousands of Christian sects out there!

Care to address the issue of whether Magus was misrepresenting himself and Mainsteam Jews when he made his 'only one difference' statement? To imply that Mainstream Jews may not be is just evasion. And if Mainstream Jews are not qualified to be arbiters of the Jewish faith, who is? Magus, an avowedly apostate Jew? You? Magus has implied before that Atheists and other skeptics can't comment on what Jews believe and yet he claims to be able to just that.

Magus has made a statement as to what mainstream Jews believe and not being a Mainstream Jew needs to get off his 'high horse' (his words to an atheist on this very topic).

Any way you slice it he's a plain ole Christian with a silly slant to his faith, regardless of whether he was born Jewish or not.

yguy

Messianic Jews do. Others may not.

Show me the OT scripture which militates against a divine Messiah.

The Trinity is no more an essential doctrine of Christianity than the non-divinity of Jesus is essential to Judaism.

Sorry, Magus.

And by gosh and by golly here it is again, 2000 years later. Almost like a resurrection, huh?

So what?

I have no idea whether Magus is a real Jew, Christian or anything else. I only know what he says he is. His authenticity is irrelevant to my position.

When I see lies, I call them what they are. That's my agenda.

That's what you're doing, not me. I won't ask why, because I already know.

yguy

If you ask them, they would have to say no, because the religion is based on the writings of Moses.

I'll leave that to him.

However, a Jew is one who believes in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A Christian is one who believes in the very same God, but who also believes that God sent His Son as a ransom for many. There is no contradiction.

In principle, it is defined by the law of Moses. The question, then, is who is qualified to interpret that law. Who says mainstream Jews are more qualified to do so than Messianic Jews, besides you and mainstream Jews? Do they win because there are more of them?

Anybody can comment on anything. One cannot help but wonder, however, wonder why the hell atheists give a damn about what either Jews or Christians believe, however.

Biff the unclean

Messianic Jews do. Others may not.
Because so-called Messianic Jews are Southern Baptists and not Jewish.

Show me the OT scripture which militates against a divine Messiah.
The Jews have a single god.

The Trinity is no more an essential doctrine of Christianity than the non-divinity of Jesus is essential to Judaism.
Sorry, Magus.
You just apologized to Magus because he is quite clear that he considers the trinity an essential doctrine. Contradicting yourself about Magus.
The non-divinity of anybody, other than Yahweh, is absolutely essential to Judaism.

And by gosh and by golly here it (Israel) is again, 2000 years later. Almost like a resurrection, huh?
That's right --gone from the first century till the twentieth. No Messiah to save it from Rome.
Back, not because of any WW II era Messiahs, but because of the United Nations. UN not JC.

I have no idea whether Magus is a real Jew, Christian or anything else. I only know what he says he is. His authenticity is irrelevant to my position.
Since your position seems to center around hearing your self talk I'm sure we are all irrelevant

Why are you trying to mislead people about Judaism?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's what you're doing, not me. I won't ask why, because I already know.
This from the same person who said…" Non-sequitur, because you presume that mainstream Jews who deny Jesus as Messiah are qualified to be arbiters of the Jewish faith."

yguy

I didn't say Jesus was God. He was divine because He was His Father's Son.

But thanks for admitting you can't find a scripture to support your position.

As much as I know you'd like to make this a debate about Magus, it isn't.

And the scripture which predicts the Messiah would save Israel from Rome is...?

You are looking at proximate causes. You have no way of knowing who was pulling strings. Considering that both America and Britain were avowedly Christian at the time, there is plenty of evidence for the influence of Christ in the re-formation of Israel.

Thanks for showing your intellectual desperation.

Yep, that's me all right.

Biff the unclean

I didn't say Jesus was God.
Magus did, and that is why he is a Christian and not a Jew.

As much as I know you'd like to make this a debate about Magus, it isn't.
It's about the Christian cult he belongs to. You are having trouble following this, I know. Next thread we'll use smaller words.

And the scripture which predicts the Messiah would save Israel from Rome is...?

So are we just off on your fantasy now? Jews aren't Jews Christians don't believe that Jesus is god. I see you say that you aren't a Christian and it's more than obvious that you aren't Jewish. Do you even have a name for your unique beliefs?

You have no way of knowing who was pulling strings. Considering that both America and Britain were avowedly Christian at the time, there is plenty of evidence for the influence of Christ in the re-formation of Israel.
As was Nazi Germany who created the guilt that the rest of the nations felt. And the United States Government, by the way, is not avowedly Christian by law.

Thanks for showing your intellectual desperation.
You're welcome.
:banghead: