2tadpoles

I know this isn't an ideal world, as I said before. However, I am an idealist. I think all education should be special education.

brighid

Frogsmoocher,

No, Frogsmoocher that is absolutely not what I said. No where have I stated that parents do not have the right to raise their children as they see fit. As a matter of fact I have stated that parents should make choices according to their particular circumstances and that each case should be judged individually.

Good for you, and according to your circumstances, your beliefs, the needs of your children and your abilities as a parent you have rightfully chosen the best course of action for your children. I have not questioned your motivation, your right to do so, or insulted your choice as you have patently insulted those of parents who for whatever set of reasons choose public or private education for their children. You have stated that they are neglectful parents and that was and is wrong.

I have not stated that it is bad for you and okay for everyone else to come out against the fundies. TIME AND TIME again I have stated that we should not make sweeping statements about homeschooling, public or private PERIOD. I personally do not think children should be sheltered in a cult like environment that deprives them of reality and indoctrinates them into a culture of hate, intolerance and superstition.

Yes, some people don’t like being with their children very much and that is truly unfortunate. Some people love being with their children but do not have the ability to provide the proper educational environment. I am sorry if I misunderstood your particular situation, but I don’t remember the distinctions you have now made in our previous conversations. I realize that this most likely means that my memory is the one in error, my apologies.

I think life is a learning a process and I use many opportunities to teach my child the things I feel will be necessary for his development. I love him with all of my being, but I know my limitations. I have the good fortune to live in an area that has a fantastic public school system. I don’t feel my child is being stifled, and he is given many opportunities for creative, independent learning. I have seen nothing to denote that he is being harmed, and in many ways he has been given benefits that I might not have been able to give. His learning doesn’t end because the bell has wrung, or because it’s summer time. My child is happy, healthy, and intelligent. He has overcome his reading difficulties and is making excellent progress in all areas of his life. Am I neglecting his education (or him) because I allow other people, professionally trained people, to teach him things I cannot?

The problems you raise are also not the fault of the public school system. It seems to be your main beef is with the parents of these children who don’t put the time and effort in you feel is proper. I don’t entirely disagree with you and the main complaint most teachers have IS that parents don’t participate enough in the education of their children. So, is that the fault of the public school system? NO. These parents surely wouldn’t be candidates for home schooling, so what should be done for those children?

I understand your frustration with those parents who you have experienced, but it is unfair to suggest that all parents who don’t choose home schooling are neglecting their children. However, your experience is not indicative of the whole. I, on the other hand, know many more parents that are actively involved in their children's public education then aren't. But I also live in a community that values education and does alot to insure their children have the best. Maybe that is the difference. I don't know.

Thank you for the suggestion about mandated education. No doubt it is a fascinating read. Hopefully I will have time to get to it soon.

Brighid

2tadpoles

Well, someone did. Okay, sorry, it was ohwilleke who said "Children are not the property of their parents. Parents are not and should not be entitled to raise their children entirely as they see fit."

No, you haven't.

Look, Brighid.... I'm not trying to use this as an excuse, but just a reason. I spend most of my day with my kids....learning, doing chores together, running errands, etc. I've been working five nights per week, usually 7-9 hour shifts with no break. I'm on my feet the entire time. When I get home, I clean up and try to unwind.... either by reading, watching TV, or visiting my boards. Sometimes I'm just really tired, physically and mentally, and don't phrase things well. I'm sorry that I called you neglectful.

You might also like to know that, since it is September and school is upon us, I've had to defend myself and my choices against 3-4 people in the last few weeks. They say things like "When do your kids go back to school? Are they ready?" When I say we homeschool and will start when we feel like it, I either get tons of questions from truly interested people, or tons of comments from critical people. The past 3-4 people have been critical. I guess I have been feeling kind of defensive.

You became very defensive upon reading what I said about schools. Imagine dealing with that all year long from complete strangers. That's what I have to put up with.

That being said, I still don't like schools. Just as some people who are opposed to daycare centers would not be able to acknowledge that there are "good" daycare centers (a daycare center is a daycare center), I have a problem with acknowledging "good" schools. They are all based on the idea that children have to be coerced into learning, which I am strongly opposed to.

No, you haven't, and I never said that you did. Nonetheless, that's how this thread began.

Neither do I. On the other hand, the people in these "cults" oppose our worldliness, type of science education, etc. They have as much right to an opinion as we do, and we don't get to control what they teach their children.

Absolutely not. Do you realize that many homeschooling families use professionally trained people to teach their children things beyond their abilities? There are homeschooled children with reading disabilities, too. HS families use outside sources for things such as music and art, and their children often go to community college as teens to take certain classes.

The whole point in homeschooling is about learning in freedom. I refuse to let the government dictate what my child needs to learn and at what age they should know it by. That's unnatural.

I don't know. But I work with a lot of teenagers, as well as talk to lots of teenagers in my neighborhood. The dumb ones get lousy grades and hate school. The smart ones get good grades (usually) and hate school. Obviously, something is wrong with school. Only a few times in my life have I met someone who really, really liked school. And then they usually like the social aspect of it. They certainly don't crow about the learning experiences.

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Frogsmoocher ]</p>

Ab_Normal

I will be the first to acknowledge the myriad deficiencies of public education. However, I will continue to work to improve my local schools (those being the schools I can best affect) as a matter of social justice, for not every family has the option of leaving the public school system.

2tadpoles

I would like to mention that one doesn't have to have a child enrolled in public school in order to work to improve public schools.

The Sound of Dogs Barking

I don't see this amount of time being significantly different than if the child has 2 parents who work for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and doesn't go to a school. There is no way for working parents not to be seperated from their children. And by sending a child to school, the parents can work during the day, and the whole family can be together at night. If one of the reasons for homeschooling was to "keep the family together", than I would assume daycare would also be undesireable; therefore, one parent would have to be home at all times - which means the entire family (mother, father, and child) would have less time together as a whole.

brighid

Frogsmoocher,

I went back and read my initial response to you on page two and I cannot see where I made any defensive remarks. I can see how you might construe my responses to your comment about children of parents who send them to public school being extremely neglectful as being defensive. However, I attacked your argument and I think I did a pretty good job at addressing the issues and not you, or even home schooling in general. I also did my best to make sure I presented a pretty balanced view and asked that we not make sweeping generalizations as you have. That being said, perhaps you are referring to a thread we engaged in a long time ago, or perhaps because of the pressure you have been under your perception was a bit skewed by those experiences. I can certainly understand that and have been guilty of such things myself.

I truly understand your frustrations. I also know what it’s like to have my parental wisdom challenged by those who think I am harming my child by not bringing him to church. I also believe parents are entitled to their opinions, but that doesn’t mean those opinions are correct or that any one has to agree with them. Public schools are certainly not perfect, some are better then others, some are absolutely disgraceful and in those instances I would probably choose to home school my child as well. I am not, nor have I attacked your choices. I think you are doing what is best for your children in your particular circumstance. But aren’t you doing the same thing you accuse others of when you hop on the “all public schools suck” bandwagon? Some children learn better in structured environments, some children learn best in a free and highly creative environment, some children don’t need tons of attention and others need a lot of it.

As a teenager I hate school too, not because of the education or work but because of the high school atmosphere. I am not sure teenagers are the best sample group to determine much of anything I was one of those people sort of caught in the middle. I hadn’t “bloomed” yet. I was awkward and at age 16 when my hormones finally kicked in I porked and broke out something fierce. It sucked. College was a MUCH better experience I lost that weight, my complexion pretty much cleared up and as one guy I went to high school with said, “Shit girl, you filled out!” The thought of ever having to do high school over again fills me with dread. I am not sure if that is a factor of public school, or the very awkward, hormonal roller-coaster like time most (if not all) teenagers go through.

I do realize that some home schools bring in outside teachers, especially those who can afford it and I don’t have a problem with home schooling per say. I have a problem with certain types of home school environments because those parents suck, but I understand the benefit those environments provide to a lot of families. I think every one should have the freedom to make that choice. I am really sorry people have been beating on your choices. It certainly becomes emotionally tiring always having to defend those choices. Perhaps you could simply by pass those nay-sayers by stating that your children begin school at the same time. They do, just in your home. Or even say because your children are intellectually advanced and the public schools in your area don’t offer classes challenging enough for them you have enrolled them in a private program with individual attention and a personal tutor. You certainly don’t have to explain yourself to any one.

It’s obvious that you love your children and that you have a hell of a lot of energy and commitment to your family I admire your gumption and your energy! Your children are lucky to have a mother (and a father) who put so much personal time and energy into insuring their health, happiness and welfare, and I don’t doubt they will grow up to be outstanding members of society. Keep up the good work, but maybe in those very few moments you have to breathe when you get to be Frogsmoocher and not Superwoman ( ) you can come to understand that there are many parents out there doing their best for their children, even if they disagree with your choices and make different ones. Sometimes we just aren’t aware of all the circumstances that effect their lives of their choices.

Good luck with ALL that you do!

Brighid

babelfish

As I read this thread, I couldn't help noticing the word "parents." As in most aspects of child-rearing, shouldn't this word actually be "mothers?"

Not to get on my feminist soap-box or anything, but do any other mothers feel like the pressure is mounting to add yet another un-paid job to our already overflowing work load?

brighid

Babelfish,

I guess that depends on the level of involvement the father has in relationship to child-rearing duties. I think the trend is changing from predominantly female childrearing to a more equal partnership between men and women. I know that my husband participates equally in our son’s education both in school and the additional work we give him at home (as well as teaching him through daily interaction.) In some cases he does more because he is a bit more objective in certain areas then I am. He attends all parent-teacher conferences, takes time off of work to bring him to the dentist, or the doctor. We usually switch off – one time it’s me and the next time it’s his turn, lately he has been doing ALL of it

That being said I don’t think anything more is being heaped on mothers. I think some women choose to take on those responsibilities for a variety of reasons and each parenting unit needs to discuss what is acceptable and what each is willing to take on for the betterment of their families. The stay-at-home parenting job is a very laborious one, but if one parent is the bread-winner and the other is the family caretaker is there an uneven distribution of labor if they decide (or in some cases it isn’t a joint decision) that the stay-at-home parent wants to also educate the children in the home? I don’t see the choice to educate children at home as a unilateral decision, and I would think that most often it is a carefully thought out choice made in tandem. This might not be the case in traditional Christian homes where this sort of things is not a choice a woman has.

I know a lot more stay-at-home dads and we even have a fairly large group of them in our community that complain that the stay-at-home mothers alienate them. Traditionally women (for many reasons that aren’t vaguely correct) have been given no other choice then to be the primary familial caregivers, but I think for the most part women today choose this role whereas before they had few choices in the matter. I want to eventually be more of a stay-at-home parent, although I am going to have to fight for that position with my husband. I will do it by choice, not because some archaic rule tells me that my place is at home caring for children.

However, I do think that society does put a lot of pressure on women (more so from other women I think) to be Superwoman. I think many women have unequal partnerships and that those women work full-time, come home and are expected (either by themselves and/or their spouse) to cook, clean, help with children’s schoolwork, etc. (or any combination thereof.) But more and more, with the many options available to the vast majority of women I have a hard time thinking that this sort of situation isn’t primarily the fault of the woman who chose that type of husband, or chooses not to make changes for whatever reason. I think we, as women expect much more out of ourselves then even our husbands or fellow man does. I think women need to take the responsibility and say we can’t be and do everything - first to herself and then to everyone else. It makes us unhappy and bitchy I think the heaping on will stop once women say – ENOUGH and quit accepting traditional roles and taking on too much responsibility. Hopefully, as we raise our male and female children we can teach them ways to cross those gender barriers and create more equality for the future generations.

Brighid

babelfish

Yeah, brighid, I realize things are getting better. In our family I rarely feel particularly taken advantage of or misused. My husband is a wonder!

Yet you have to admit, your husband and mine just ain't the norm! If they were, would we be feeling so fortunate to have found them?

As far as educating children in the home, it seems that even if the mother works outside the home, home schooling the children naturally seems to fall to her.

And as much as even fundamentalists talk about fathers getting more involved in their children's lives, it seems that the "involvement" consists mostly of controlling their children's lives from afar, being the "leader" in the home, rather than doing the nitty gritty repetative drudge work that most of child-rearing actually is.

Sorry all you sentimentalists, but it's true.

HOWEVER, that having been said, doing all the dirty work, spending gobs of time with your children, brings ENORMOUS rewards. I would never want to go back in time and give up a single dirty diaper, messy mealtime, reading the same book over and over again, comforting a sick child, etc. Not for all the monetary compensation in the world. But let's start putting the proper value on this job of nurturing children. Unfortunately, in our society, if you're not working for money, your work is undervalued. Even if you are merely raising the next generation of responsible, well-adjusted human beings!

&lt;climbs down from soap box&gt;