Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Goliath · 05-16-2003, 12:59 PM

Soul Invictus,

Quote:

How is this incorrect?

It is inconsistent with the etymology of the word atheist "a" meaning without, and "theist" meaning "one who believes that a god exists."

Quote:

As I had stated, regardless of who bears the burden of proof atheists can no better prove God/gods don't exist ( or refute the existence of God) than the theists who believe in God/gods.

This couldn't possibly be more irrelevant. When have I ever claimed that any particular god doesn't exist? Please either point out where I have made such a claim, or take back your assertion that I need to prove that no gods exist.

Quote:

If asked about your personal belief in the existence of God/gods your affiliation (excluding the enigmatic agnostic stance) is either

1) belief in the existence of God/gods OR
2) belief that there is no God/gods

Neither. I do not believe that there are any gods, and I do not believe that there are no gods.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath · 05-16-2003, 01:19 PM

CJD,

Quote:

1. Goliath, I daresay you would not call me a liar if we were having a face-to-face encounter.

You again presume to know things about me, when you know almost nothing about me! I would have no problem calling you a liar to your face, because I now have no doubt that this is precisely what you are.

Quote:

The burden lies on you to prove my malicious intent.

Intent? Irrelevant! You have stated that you have not presumed to know anything about me, when you have done just the opposite.

Quote:

2. It makes no difference whatsover if the hypothetical person's answer was 'honest.'

Yes it does, because this effects what beliefs are gleaned from the question.

Quote:

Well, of course, "one can perform actions that don't conform to one's beliefs." It happens all the time.

Agreed.

Quote:

But not with sincerity, and not perpetually consuming the individual's entire life.

I'm not convinced that this is true. Could you please prove that no one could ever perform an action that is contrary to one's beliefs without having said action consuming one's life?

Quote:

3. In response to this: "Living like an atheist" simply means in this context one who does not pray, does not attend church; in short, one who does not attempt to follow Christ;" you wrote, "This definition is inadequate. Non-xian theists do not, in general, live their lives like atheists."

This was my point. They are theists. Of course they do not live like athiests. You must read me more carefully, I gather. Let me help you (written previously by me):

Your definition of "living like an atheist" is inadequate because, according to your faulty definition, some deists would be living like atheists (many deists do not go to church or pray). Now, if you had intended to say that some deists "live like atheists," then that's fine (for the purposes of this discussion). However, if that is the case, then your "living like an atheist" criterion is worthless for separating atheists from theists.

Quote:

* I must say, in closing, that I find it increasingly curious that you (like many other youthful atheists)

Why do you call me "youthful"? What do you know of my age? I could be 65 years old, for all you know.

Quote:

tend to avoid the actual meat of the argument, instead opting to trim the fat with hopes of showing logical inconsistency or something (the typical tap-dance).

I have destroyed your argument (that I believe that a god exists because I "live like an atheist") time and time and time again. If you think that I have no addressed your argument, then that is your problem, not mine. I think I have been crystal clear in my deconstruction of your argument, and I will let the readers of this thread decide for themselves who was the victor here.

Sincerely,

Goliath

PS In about 75 minutes, I'll be leaving town for the summer. For the next three months or so, I'll only have limited access to the internet, so if you reply to this post, it may take me awhile to respond.

Goliath · 05-16-2003, 01:54 PM

CJD,

Quote:

Do you see where this undermines Goliath's argument that atheism is not a belief?

Okay, CJD, it's time to put up or shut up. If you continue to claim that atheism is a belief, then what is atheism a belief in? Can you even name one belief held by every atheist that has ever lived?

Sincerely,

Goliath

hinduwoman · 05-16-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
hinduwoman,

By definition, they are not.

Sincerely,

Goliath

if belief and lack of belief is not the same thing, what is the questioner trying to prove?
Atheists lack belief in gods; so how can it be a positive belief?

SteveD · 05-16-2003, 07:39 PM

CJD,

Maybe this will help you understand where Goliath is coming from.

Do you believe that my car is blue?

Do you believe that my car is not blue?

Do you have any belief at all concerning the color of my car?

Conchobar · 05-16-2003, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
By definition atheism is a lack of a belief in a God.
Turned around, atheism is can also be phrased as a belief in the non-existence of God.

I disagree. For one thing that is a grammatically poor sentence. Since Atheism means no belief, let me translate you. "No belief is can also be phrased as a belief in the non-existence of god." You said that No belief is belief, that is contradictory. Plus your grammar needs retuning

Unless God were to manifest him/her/it self unto man, we all have no evidence to refute the others' claim, so it is my contention that atheists have judged that with the lack of evidence that there is no God.

We have an obligation to reject any extraordinary claim not backed by evidence. We have no obligation to believe something invisible, inaudible, improbable, and lacking evidence just because someone claims it. Psychiatric hospitals are full of people who have heard God talk to them.

The reason why atheists can't know there is no God is because there is no agreed upon criteria as to what/who God is nor is there any substantive, tangible [emphasis added] proof for either party. So atheists could no better prove with empirical, factual, tangible evidence that there is no God, than the theists who adamantly insist that God exists.

You have to define what you mean by God. Is God the anthropomorphic god of Islamo-Christianity-Judaism? That god is historically refutable because its evolution in human thought can be traced back through polytheisms, spiritualism/animism of stone age people. That is enough to justify Atheism. If God is defined as intelligent but non-humanoid like the Deists, it is not measurable in any way. So one honestly must be agnostic.

Conchobar

Soul Invictus · 05-18-2003, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
Soul Invictus,

The enlarged text was for emphasis.

Incorrect. You asserted that I believed that no gods exist, when in fact, I hold no such belief.

Correct. I do not believe that any gods exist.

Absolutely wrong! It means that when asked the question "Do you believe that any gods exist?" My answer is "no." You're assuming that I've reached a conclusion about the non-existence of gods, when in fact I have reached no such conclusion. This is because I hold no beliefs regarding the existence of gods.

Almost correct--I do not believe that no gods exist.

Correct. I will believe in a god's existence if and only if a proof is given of said god's existence.

Because you apparently do not understand the difference between holding a belief and not holding a belief.

This definition is incorrect. As an aside, there are dictionaries that include the (correct) distinctions between weak and strong atheism, and there are many more dictionaries that define atheism as wickedness. This is why I don't put any stock whatsoever in dictionary definitions when it comes to any debate about atheism and/or religion.

Sincerely,

Goliath

PS In about 90 minutes, I'm going to be leaving Fargo for the summer. I'll only have limited access to the internet, so if you reply to this, it may be awhile before I respond.

Goliath,

I was out of town over the weekend as well.... As I put in the previous thread, you have yet to entertain my theories, however I see that since we disagree on the fundamental premises, we won't ever get to that discussion, such as the definition of an atheist. I would argue that the dictionaries that define atheism as wickedness would be invalid. What problems do you (and the rest of the board for that matter) have with the definition? Does in incorrectly portray the definition of atheism, or does it fail to encompass a more comprehensive definition, which, if omitted, would be material for discussion?

I always thought the prefix "a" equated to not. An example would be the word atypical. This would mean not typical, right? In the same following I would use the word theism. This would mean to believe in some sort of magnitude of the existence of a God/gods/Godforce/ entity, or whatever synonym you feel would do the concept justice. Therefore "a"theism would be a lack of this belief.

Unless I'm missing some element, subjects can be classified as one of two items. They are:

1) matters of fact

or

2) matters of opinion

Matters of fact are issues which can be proven via observation or with tangible evidence. An example I will provide is the issue of viscosity. Via observation we can show that by according to the phenomenon known as viscosity, water has little to none of this when compared to oil, and on similar surfaces. This is a absolute, conclusive issue. It is not debatable. It can be proven. This is a matter of fact.

The subject of God and his/her/its existence thus far has not been proven, is not absolute nor conclusive and as we can see, is highly debatable. Therefore, given our two choices, issues that are factual in nature, and those which we can only speculate about, any discussions about God are issues of opinion...whether you believe in God or not.

The issue is not whether or not your stance on the existence of gods is neutral or if you have no beliefs in it whatsoever. To even entertain a discussion or make a contribution making reference to a thus far unprovable concept, by default puts one in the matters of opinion category. If however, you find my examples faulty still, I'd really want to know what areas you are finding problematic.

Starboy · 05-18-2003, 08:00 PM

Perhaps Goliath believes that most of gods he knows about do not exist. And those he knows nothing about, well he lacks belief one way or another. After all, what can you say about something you know nothing about? The religious can be very creative, who knows what they will dream up next.

Starboy

Soul Invictus · 05-18-2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
After all, what can you say about something you know nothing about?
Starboy

That's the whole crux of the debate. Since God thus far is not a verfiable entity, any discussion is purely opinion based. Theists believe in a God, atheists don't. It's not the fact that atheists don't believe that makes their stance a belief, in my opinion. The issue is that since you're entertaining a discussion on a concept, which is not tangible or verfiable, your stance is a secondary issue.

Starboy · 05-18-2003, 08:23 PM

The whole issue is sort of mucked up. You have the Christians on the one hand that are making very definite claims about the nature and qualities of god then there are the deists that don't really have much at all to say about god. I have no problem saying that I believe there is no Christian god based on the claims made about it but in regards to the deist god, not much to know, not much to say. The same goes for any other god I do not know about.

Starboy

View Poll Results: Is Atheism a belief?
No	106	81.54%
Yes	24	18.46%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-16-2003, 07:39 PM	#75
SteveD Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 118	CJD, Maybe this will help you understand where Goliath is coming from. Do you believe that my car is blue? Do you believe that my car is not blue? Do you have any belief at all concerning the color of my car?

05-18-2003, 08:00 PM	#78
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Perhaps Goliath believes that most of gods he knows about do not exist. And those he knows nothing about, well he lacks belief one way or another. After all, what can you say about something you know nothing about? The religious can be very creative, who knows what they will dream up next. Starboy

05-18-2003, 08:23 PM	#80
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	The whole issue is sort of mucked up. You have the Christians on the one hand that are making very definite claims about the nature and qualities of god then there are the deists that don't really have much at all to say about god. I have no problem saying that I believe there is no Christian god based on the claims made about it but in regards to the deist god, not much to know, not much to say. The same goes for any other god I do not know about. Starboy

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.