Freethought & Rationalism Archive

wildernesse · 05-27-2003, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hubble head
Secular Future,

Trying to promote a world run by scientists and humanistic values is as foreign to some here as crying statues are to us.

If the scientists who run the world in transhumanists' future are anything like the scientists I work with, the world will be over-run with gossips and nothing will ever be on time again. Of course, the world might be controlled by some really interesting people--but you could say the same of the world now. Most scientists that I know would not function very well in the 9-5 work world where there are deadlines and diplomacy. This is a good thing and a bad thing.

Science is not the pinnacle of humanity, IMO. You might disagree, but I see more value in friendship and love, literature and drama and gardening than in test tubes and computer models. We could be human without science, and yet I think we could not be without the more emotional arts. It is not an either or situation, of course, at least in my world. Transhumanism seems to think that it is, IMO.

--tibac

Hubble head · 05-27-2003, 06:39 PM

agree. Perhaps I should have used the word intellectuals instead of scientists. Most scientists I know would rather freeze a rat in liquid nitrogen and hit it with a hammer (while gossipping about Fred's promotion and bad haircut) than run the world.

wildernesse · 05-27-2003, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Most scientists I know would rather freeze a rat in liquid nitrogen and hit it with a hammer (while gossipping about Fred's promotion and bad haircut) than run the world.

Hey! That sounds like fun! Little rat splinters, how neat.

(Oh dear me, if I hadn't always been like this, I would have to seriously consider getting a new job soon with people who only care about eyeliner and have a limited vocabulary.)

--tibac

Tarnaak · 05-27-2003, 07:47 PM

Transhumanism is a government project in case you didn't know. Most of our technology today comes from government labs. There are many things going on in the governments of the world that the average joe has no clue about.

As far as self improvement, most "systems" only work for a few. Humans are a diverse species and as history has proven time and again, there is no "one" system that works for all humanity.

IMHO Transhumanism is just another self help system with no apparent method.:boohoo:

Onward:

I have been doing a bit of "research", but alas, there is not a definite argument I could find to appease this discussion as far as God exsisting.

I even tried to believe that I didn't believe, but for whatever reason, that scared me through and through. I consider myself to be an analytical, born under the sign of Virgo, and yes I have experimented with differing theologies (astronomy, satanism, witchcraft, ect), but I was not able to come up with a "why" to my fear that made any sense to me.

Basically, all in all, Pascals wager does seem to make the most sense. I believe in Jesus. But if he doesn't exsist, then I'm no worse for wear and perhaps better because of it (believeing).

I will be around from time to time to muse upon these forums. Perhaps even put my two cents worth in. But as far as arguing for or against the exsistance of God, eh, I've learned quite a bit.

Not that I'm signing off, but I wish you all well, I really do.

Until l8r, Peace be with you all.....

mike_decock · 05-27-2003, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
I even tried to believe that I didn't believe, but for whatever reason, that scared me through and through.

I was not able to come up with a "why" to my fear that made any sense to me.

It's simple: conditioning.

It took me more than a decade before I could honestly and objectively question my belief in God. I thought I was going to get struck down by lightning, burn in Hell, become evil, be deceived, etc, etc, etc. Decades of indoctrination (brainwashing) will do that to a person.

Quote:

Basically, all in all, Pascals wager does seem to make the most sense. I believe in Jesus. But if he doesn't exsist, then I'm no worse for wear and perhaps better because of it (believeing).

It makes no sense at all. Even if there is a God, the key to salvation could just as easily be atheism as Christianity.

-Mike...

SecularFuture · 05-27-2003, 11:15 PM

Hubble head

Quote:

� What other systems that hope to provide massive answers for secular world are out there? (please do not include Ayn Rand's Objectivism)�

I�m sorry, but � Secular Humanism and Transhumanism are the only two I know about. I think Existentialism may be another one, but I�m not sure. I�ll do some research for you.

Quote:

�The one thing that initially bothers me (and I could have misread) is that Transhumanism still involves some kind of leadership and hierarchal structure to group mentality.�

No � No. There are no rules or Popes. There�s only a description of what Transhumanism is and is not. Same thing applies for atheism. Atheism is a disbelief in a god; it is not about knowing that there is not a god.

Quote:

� Some of us will disagree on whether all religions and cults should be outlawed in the future; some will feel that people should be free to believe whatever they want.�

Not when their beliefs are destroying the civility and development of humankind.

Quote:

�Should we allow anyone to study fission if his/her intent is to build a weapon?�

If that weapon will be used to destroy incoming asteroids, sure.

Quote:

� If Transhumanism teaches people how to put their egos aside and constructively achieve new truths, it will be a huge improvement over what we have in place today regardless of what we will inherently disagree on.�

I absolutely agree.

SecularFuture · 05-27-2003, 11:22 PM

Aradia

Quote:

� You'll never accept this, though, because you believe you know the One True Path(tm).�

Not �one true path�. There�s probably other good paths to rationalism, but this is the best one I (personally) know of at the moment.

Quote:

�Plenty of good can come from believing in a god that doesn't exist.�

This has to be a joke.

Nothing good can come from believing in something that is untrue. If someone believed that they could fly, and then decided to jump off a bridge, would that be considered good? This is, essentially, what the religious theists are doing with all of humanity.

Quote:

� I hate to break it to you, but everything that we do is a giant waste of time. Eventually, we will all die. Nothing we do actually matters. It's the fear of nihilism that drives many people to believe, and it's the fear of nihilism that seems to drive you as well. And this does not paint a pretty picture of you:�

I have one word for you. ~ TRANSHUMANISM ~

Quote:

� If this is how transhumanism has affected you, I want no part of it. It seems to have done nothing for you except breed hatred and animosity towards others.�

Oh give me a break! I�m just one person. You�re going to judge an entire philosophy because of the actions and emotions of one person? That�s a little prejudice, don�t you think?

SecularFuture · 05-27-2003, 11:37 PM

wildernesse

Quote:

�I was pointing out that a good chunk of religions might not have these concepts. Therefore, this generalization does not fit "most" religions.�

Okay � Okay. Which word should I use then to describe a theistic religion, or a religion that believes in supernaturalism?

Quote:

� Without complete knowledge, we can make no conclusions whatsoever that are binding. That includes whether or not a supernatural exists.�

I agree.

Quote:

� Progressing towards WHAT?�

Better humans.

Quote:

� Progress to what end?�

Better humans. There�s always going to be room for improvement.

Quote:

� Progress simply means (as your definition shows) a positive movement toward a goal�

The Transhumanist goal is to improve humanity, and to keep improving it for as long as humanity exists.

Quote:

� What do you consider a limitation?�

Anything that causes stress. There�s more, but this is the basic idea, I think.

Quote:

� And yet it serves the same role for you that my theism serves for me--it provides a framework for viewing the world.�

Transhumanism doesn�t rely on ancient �magical�concepts though. It�s based on real things from a real world. It�s not based on a book that tries to justify the existence of a supernatural realm that can only be believed and not seen, and its not based on any kind of blind faith. There is reason behind Transhumanist beliefs. Technology and medicine is improving daily, and much progress is being made in life-extension research.

Quote:

� You obviously do not have complete knowledge of all theistic beliefs and practices, so an analogous response to you is that you are in no position to criticize anything in relation to theism.�

Theism is pretty basic. If there isn�t evidence for the supernatural, there is no evidence in support for Theism. And as I said before: Without complete knowledge of the natural world, you are not in the position to deem something as having a supernatural nature or origin. It�s that simple.

Quote:

� Also, if *you* can't tell me what kind of technology and medicine we will have 100 years from now, I don't think you're in any position to advocate for Transhumanism.�

Common sense tells us that technology and medicine is improving, yes?

Quote:

� I see more value in friendship and love, literature and drama and gardening than in test tubes and computer models.�

Me to. We still need science and medicine to stay alive to enjoy all of the friendship, love, literature, drama, and gardening though.

SecularFuture · 05-27-2003, 11:40 PM

Hubble head

Quote:

� I agree with your first two paragraph's 100%. Did you write that or is it someone else's words you interpreted?�

I do all of my own thinking and writing.

Quote:

� Agnostics and others on their way to atheism cannot be forced or hurried along in any way. Doing that will likely have the opposite affect.�

Very good point.

Quote:

� If introduction of reason and rationality was enough, the world would have shed it�s myths and superstitions long ago.�

Thank you for a very insightful response.

SecularFuture · 05-27-2003, 11:50 PM

Tarnaak

Quote:

� Humans are a diverse species and as history has proven time and again, there is no "one" system that works for all humanity.�

Well� maybe Transhumanism could divide into categories, so that it can be customized for everyone.

Quote:

�IMHO Transhumanism is just another self help system with no apparent method.�

And how did you come to this conclusion? Have you looked through the Transhumanists sites that I posted here?

Quote:

�Basically, all in all, Pascals wager does seem to make the most sense. I believe in Jesus. But if he doesn't exsist, then I'm no worse for wear and perhaps better because of it (believeing).�

So you believe in Jesus and all of that stuff because it is comforting, and you don�t mind believing in concepts that are without reason or evidence?

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05-27-2003, 06:39 PM	#42
Hubble head Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Corn rows Posts: 4,570	agree. Perhaps I should have used the word intellectuals instead of scientists. Most scientists I know would rather freeze a rat in liquid nitrogen and hit it with a hammer (while gossipping about Fred's promotion and bad haircut) than run the world.

05-27-2003, 07:47 PM	#44
Tarnaak Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 106	Transhumanism is a government project in case you didn't know. Most of our technology today comes from government labs. There are many things going on in the governments of the world that the average joe has no clue about. As far as self improvement, most "systems" only work for a few. Humans are a diverse species and as history has proven time and again, there is no "one" system that works for all humanity. IMHO Transhumanism is just another self help system with no apparent method.:boohoo: Onward: I have been doing a bit of "research", but alas, there is not a definite argument I could find to appease this discussion as far as God exsisting. I even tried to believe that I didn't believe, but for whatever reason, that scared me through and through. I consider myself to be an analytical, born under the sign of Virgo, and yes I have experimented with differing theologies (astronomy, satanism, witchcraft, ect), but I was not able to come up with a "why" to my fear that made any sense to me. Basically, all in all, Pascals wager does seem to make the most sense. I believe in Jesus. But if he doesn't exsist, then I'm no worse for wear and perhaps better because of it (believeing). I will be around from time to time to muse upon these forums. Perhaps even put my two cents worth in. But as far as arguing for or against the exsistance of God, eh, I've learned quite a bit. Not that I'm signing off, but I wish you all well, I really do. Until l8r, Peace be with you all.....

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