Volcanen

Now Gemma, I mist admit I have been following this post, and have read every word of it, and I see the same arguments coming out of alot of people, and to and extent they are good. I know I am an atheist, and I know why. My family is all religious, but still I don't believe. Free will is good, but if it was done as you say, then free will is a moot point so there is no purpose in having it. I will listen open mindedly to arguments for and against, but I do not see how, in any way shape or form any sort of god could exist (I do not capitalize because I don't believe not to offend). I am limited in my experiences simply due to age, but when you ponder religion, all it seems to do is give people explanations to things they don't know or can't explain. Our science can explain more than religion ever could before, the ocean is science, the wind is science, everything is sciece, and if any god (whichever you happen to believe in) in the opinions I have gathered from theists much as yourself in beleif, use it as an excuse to be ignorant, although you don't seem to be, but I hold that if science cannot explain it, and this has been studied extensively by science around the world, without intervention from this being or spirit then he is either a.) lazy b.) laughing at us or c.) waiting to have someone start another major holy war

MrDarwin

Gemma Therese, have you given any thought to any of my questions?

DRFseven

As I'm sure you are aware, saying "just believe" in no way explains how to believe, and, nope, prayer does not work. Should I squeech my eyes shut and, like the Cowardly Lion in The Wizard of Oz, repeat over and over, "I do, I do, I do believe!"? If you are serious about your assertion that we have free will to believe in God, then EXPLAIN HOW, please. Just how does one believe something one does not believe?

Ion

I think Gemma you are in this Forum as a crusader, trying to convert people to your religious dogmas, since you are not receptive, learning and respectful of other people's ideas.

Philosoft

I dunno. I've heard about this guy and I'd probably notice him if he was around.

Jobar

Welcome Volcanen. Very good first post- just for your info, we have members here as young as 12. And several very active ones under 18. So please, feel free to join in with your observations. J.

Typhon

I'd excuse you all the seconds you want, if you'd bother to answer any of my questions. Interesting how the more you paint yourself into an intellectual corner, the more you resort to fleeing from the discussion.

What's the matter Gemma, have you truly nothing to say in defense of your own ideas?

So again, how exactly do you justify your "belief" in nuclear physics if you do not have an understanding of it? In other words, why do you trust that what nuclear physics says about the world, is liable to be true? On a similar note, why do you believe in god, if as you say, you have at best, an incomplete understanding of said god?

Tut, tut Gemma, it is silly and rather dishonest to thank me for an act that I not only did not do, but did not in fact happen. By all means scroll up to my post and behold the miracle of the uncapitalized god! Impressive, perhaps those silly Satanists have been right all along, and I am god. Makes as much sense as a virgin birth.

Now back to my question, which no surprise, you didn't answer, again.

So, you do not fully understand the mind of god. You admit that you are capable of sin. Do you still hold that everything you do, you do for god? Is it in your opinion, the intent, rather than the act, that dictates this? Do you think it is possible to do things unconsciously if this is the case, which are not, necessarily for god?

Do you ever just do things for yourself, or others, who are not god?

Moving back towards free will, where does free will fit into all this. Surely you have the free will to do something that is not for god, or do you?

Also, as remarked before, I do not hold that it is a free choice, if the maker of the game, in this case your supposed god, has informed the choosers, that one choice will be punished (severely) and the other rewarded.

Add to this that this god has refused or refrained from allowing any reliable evidence of his existence to surface, as well as thrown doubt upon the choice itself (followers of various versions of this god, have vastly differing opinions about the nature of the choice and the reward/punishment that ensues), and it becomes increasingly unlikely that such a bargain is truly the work of an intelligent or benevolent god, and more likely, that it is born of the flawed and self-serving imagination of man.

In any regard, I hold that it is not, a free choice.

Such a deity would be a small god (pun intended) indeed.

.T.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

sidewinder

Ah, spoken like a true religious fanatic. Ever think about converting to Islam and moving to the Middle East, Osama Bin Gemma Therese?

Gemma Therese

Sidewainder,

That was cruel and malicious. Perhaps you are too young to understand.

So, are all the men who died for the US "patriotic fanatics"?

IN God's Love,

Gemma Therese

Gemma Therese

Typhon,

You could not possibly understand why I believe in God, so why should I waste time telling you? If God opened the heavens, came down, and tap-danced to "Puttin' On The Ritz", I'm sure you would still be an atheist.

Tell me, Typhon, have you ever been in love? Was it intellectually motivated?

In God's Love,

Gemma Therese