Eudaimonist

So did the Greeks. They were just as pious.

Jamie_L

I second notions that you are basically saying "atheism isn't valid because it's not supernaturalism". (Although, technically, atheism and supernaturalism are not incompatible. You can be a supernaturalist atheist. You're really attacking metaphysical naturalism here.)

If you were to say atheism is bad because it deprives people of feelings of connectedness, that might be more valid, but would certainly be debatable.

What you've basically said, however, is that "not believing in gods is bad because you are not believing in gods."

Jamie

Shake

Most obviously, you don't even understand what you just wrote! We don't believe it exists, so connected or not, we don't care! It's not a problem for us!The core of the Earth is real, but it's not part of my day to day life, and so it doesn't concern me much either! How can you miss what you can't (or haven't) experience(d)?

What are you really asking about being "connected?" When I go into nature or look at the stars, I feel connected with the Universe. When I'm among people at a concert or an airshow or a parade, I feel connected to the crowd. Families and other social groups have connectedness. Please explain further.

Ojuice5001

True, except I'm not thinking in all-or-none terms. My point is not that anyone can be completely separate from concepts, nature, or supernature, but some people are more connected than others, and metaphysical naturalists are less. I probably should have put it like that.

Ojuice5001

Well, like I said to Shadowy Man, I was really thinking in terms of more and better connections to the things around oneself. I may be wrong, but it seems to me as if there is an experience of connectedness that is distinctly supernaturalist.

At least, that's how it was for me. When I was sixteen, I was a naturalistic atheist, and yet I did have this kind of experience of spiritual connection. I did start out trying to see this experience naturalistically, but without getting into the details, before long I ended up believing in supernatural theism. Possibly other people's experiences point to a different worldview, but mine point to my worldview.

Shadowy Man

Define "connected".

Ab_Normal

I, too, am shaky on this whole "connected" thing. I can lie on my back on top of a mountain, looking up at a sky full of stars, barely able to breathe for awe, thinking, "Damn, that's BIG". Is that connected?

Ojuice5001

More or less, I simply mean that two things can affect each other. This can happen with natural causes, or with conceptual relations (such as thought), or with supernatural relations. Both objective connections and subjective awareness of them are desirable. The three kinds of connectedness are individually desirable, so that a natural connectedness cannot be a perfect substitute for the other two kinds.

So atheism has some effect on objective connectedness, but a lot more on subjective awareness.

Rusting Car Bumper

It seesm that "Religio Romana" is an invented construct and as such "Religio Romana" cannot "provide a sharp sense of the spiritual connectedness that exists in the world" since its illusory.

It seems you are presupposing what it means to be "connected to the world."

Cleary if you define this is such a way that it needs supernaturalistic religion then of course through circular reasoning one would then "need religion."

Many atheists, for example, would say that supernaturalism is inherently disconnected with the world since it is merely a set of unsubstantiated constructs and its only experience is within one's consciousness. As such its not conencted to the world at all.

Its the very emphasized point which is in duspute. You cannot assume what you must actually show.

Who says atheists don't take gods seriously?

Gods are powerful concepts and some gods are better than others. For example, I'd say the Greek gods are far more naturalistic and realistic than monotheism for example. With the Greek "system" one can actually try to explain principles of understanding through rich myths which express valuews which are oftne in conflict. One cannot do that with monotheism because if these values eminate from God it would mean god is in conflict with itself.

The phrase "supernatural aspect of natural phenomenon" is nonsensical.

Anyway the rest is nonsense also.

DC

Ojuice5001

Yes it is. I don't deny that naturalists can know connectedness, and sometimes quite profoundly. I just say that supernaturalists can know it better.