free12thinker

I will answer that by stating first that you're right by adding a big IF to this question. We all know that religion (and Christianity in general) has brought about more hate and struggle for civilization than everything else put together.

That said, I believe there are some good things about religion. It helps those people who are weak minded and need something to hold onto. It also makes people do great things that they otherwise may not do. But, without religion, if, hypothetically, no one was ever told about a God and jesus, wouldn't these people, who are weak minded and wish to ask for God's help in everything, be more inclined to help themselves, and furthermore, take more responsibility for themselves and the world around them? They would have no choice but to do so. But with religion comes a guide, which lessens our intelligence and desire to think for ourselves. Is God evil? I don't think the idea of a God is evil, though his takes on homosexuality, womens roles, gambling, prayer, "him first" and ... are certainly selfish.

Anyway. Without religion, conflict would stand on face value, meaning, there would be nothing to take out of life than what we see. Instead, we are treated to a thousand different cultures (good), each one with a differing view on their lot in life (good & bad), and each one of them saturized in a religion that consumes their rationale and makes them incapable of making decision based on the human condition and social history (bad).

Religion renders some people domineering and some people dominated. That's the bottom line. And why is this? Because religion is a set of morals and ethics, based on something outside of the human condition. Therefore it cannot do more good than Atheism because with "set rules" comes "set living" and with "set living" comes limitations on our freedoms. So when all is said and done, even a religion that brings about order and in that, lessens chaos, that also means it brings about the weakening of the human mind. The stealing of our impulses and thus the destruction of human nature.

You can take the perfectly moral religion (with it's rules) and I will continue to base my judgements on how they effect our lot in life. I will keep my free will, which is my own, and not disguise it as Gods. Which brings up a question for you. If we have free will from god, than why are there two different consequences (heavan or hell) depending on what decision we make. In essence, we are free to think for ourselves and question the impossible-to-interpret bible, but once we do, we're burning in hell. Hmmmmmmmmmm...

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: free12thinker ]</p>

free12thinker

I think one could easily argue that his goodness is only goodness to a certain group of people. Read the bible and ask yourself why he puts women "in their place" or why he treats gamblers and homosexuals as sinners, without due reason. This is halting the progression of someones desired life. A life that isn't halting the progression of someone else's.

Is his outer skin good? Yes. But within those scriptures shows a complete distinction between a forgiving and caring god and a vengeful, narrow minded deity of questionable intentions.

Prove me otherwise by explaining the goodness in someone with so little tolerance. It's a tyranny within a blueprint of life that people are finally beginning to question. Agree with me or you will perish! (Just kidding, I'm not God)

Datheron

SOMMS,

What an ironic statement.

Religion is, by far, the most homo-centric ideology in human history. Nothing other than religion has tried to claim humans as unique and special in the universe as often and as arrogant; I would say that most of the arguments for God presume this little bias.

Oh, the irony.

Ender

Excellent, Datheron! You said it much better than i did- given that i was irate with anger at being frustrated with SOMMS' puerile responses.

~WiGGiN~

Bracer

Sorry to snip out such a tiny bit, but...

Ender, I applaud your argument, but feel compelled to add that the main motivation for many (though of course, not all) geologists and weather scientists isn’t exactly to “corral the forces of nature for future use.” Many simply want to be able to understand those phenomena enough to be able to warn people of when such things happen -- and hence, reduce human suffering.

Which, in my mind anyway, makes such people a lot more moral than any hypothetical god who would build a world that includes those kinds of “blind, irrational” events in the first place.

And not so incidentally, SOMMS, I laugh at you. Rather spitefully. Have you ever cowered in a basement hoping a tornado would pass you by? Have you ever sprinted for the nearest doorframe (said to be the strongest point of a house or other structure) when a strong tremor hit? I have, on both counts. It ain’t fun. In fact, it’s about the most frightening thing you can imagine. And I’ve only had a couple of close scares. It’s way more than I ever wanted to know.

However, SOMMS, seeing as how you seem to like putting all the blame for human suffering on humans alone -- as if a flow of lava, a falling meteor, or a tiny bit of the Earth actually moving under you couldn’t really ruin your day -- are you also that stripe of apologist who thinks that people get what they deserve for being, essentially, arrogant, stupid, and willful enough to settle in areas prone to earthquakes, storms and floods? Just curious here.

WJ

Good post Luv!

For Atheism to even be considered as absolutely true, the concepts of good/evil would not have to exist because they are required to exist. In otherwords, Atheism is just another religion.

In that regard, there are many Atheist's who are agnostic wannabe's.

Walrus

PS, luv the name luv!

Godless Dave

Huh?

Jayhawker Soule

Does that sentence mean anything?

WJ

Guys...

What does Atheism mean? (Why does the concept exist?)

Sorry for the rhetorical question, but you had to ask. I await your replies.

Walrus

Automaton

WJ has resisted the temptation to post something based on coherent grounds, for he knows he will only be woefully defeated at the hands of the Atheist Fundamentalists from the Nonchurch of Unchrist, with their crude, underhanded debating tactics such as "reason" and "logic" that are nothing compared to the absolute and omnipotent justification for everything: good, Christian, blind, obediant FAITH. Thus he has decided to consist his posts of nothing more than random words, interspersed randomly with lots of praise for any random Christian poster. Praise Unjesus!