Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mike_decock · 04-18-2003, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel
The Jewish people believe the "Fall" is mainly mankind taking on new responsibilites as a consequence of learning knowledge of good and evil.

Exactly. The moral of the Adam/Eve story is so glaringly obvious that I can't understand why most Christians are blind to it.

The curse of man isn't due to disobedience, our curse is our knowledge of the difference between good and evil. We are forced to consider the consequences every time we make a choice. Without this knowledge, we would still be in the figurative "garden of Eden", a state of moral innocence.

-Mike...

yguy · 04-18-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevbo
I just want to see the Jewish/Christian/Muslim point of view, if any care to answer. From my point of view, it seems sadistic that God would set up humans to fail and then hold it against them. How is this rationalized within your respective religion?

He set us up to succeed, not fail.

Alludium Fozdex · 04-18-2003, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55 If you think giving his mortal life away to save us, and enduring all that when He never had to, is sadistic, you got issues.

Actually, that's masochistic, but that's a whole 'nother fetish...

Tabula_rasa · 04-18-2003, 10:59 AM

Quote:

by yguy:
He set us up to succeed, not fail.

And, you can absolutely show this to be a true statement how?

Tabula_rasa

Magus55 · 04-18-2003, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TiConTiki
You say He created humanity out of love and yet - how can it be loving to create something that you know you will punish for all eternity?

And you point out that He gave His mortal life to save us- but it was Him that created the rules that made us in need of being saved in the first place.

For you and I - mere mortals - giving our mortal life would seem quite a sacrifice - but for God who can have as many mortal incarnations as He pleases whenever and wherever he chooses - it does not seem quite such a sacrifice. And certainly being crucified would be horrifically painful - but millions of folks have suffered far more painful deaths.

Just think of the little children now in Iraq who have lost their arms and legs - and the physical pain they are suffering. Jesus did not suffer that much. Think of those who died under torture during the Inquisitions. Having one's skin peeled from their body and immersed in hot oil or burned at the stake - or being drawn and quartered.

Crucifixtion pales in comparision to some modes of suffering.

And certainly God knew before He EVER created man (being Omniscient) that at one point He would sacrifice His own mortal life for them - so He planned it all along. That just doesn't really seem sacrifical at all to me. Kinda like commiting suicide.

Because, God is loving, but He is also just and righteous. He is required by His own Divine nature to punish anyone who remains a "criminal". He doesn't want to punish anyone, He HAS to, or He wouldn't be Righteous. If He really wanted to punish people, He would have never carried our sins on the cross to save us. We all deserve Hell. God died for us, out of love. He in no way had to. It was a merciful, loving act. But people still choose to reject that love - so they have to be punished.

God created the laws, and told us EXACTLY what would happen for disobeying them. And not only did He tell us the consequences, He waits years and years to let us try and fix the problem before judging us. God never created humans to be a failure. We became failures on our own by thinking we could live outside of God's laws.

You certaintly trivialize the pain and suffering associate with crucifiction don't you? Remember, Jesus was completely Human on top of being God. He had pain receptors just like us. He didn't dull the pain by his divinity, because at any moment He could have told God the Father to save Him, but He didn't - He went through with it because of how much He loves us.

Second, Jesus endured more pain than anyone ever has, you know why? Because He didn't just die an excrutiating death. He carried the burden of all of humanities sins with Him. Sin separates us from God, so by carrying all the worlds sin and evil - He was separated from God the Father for the first time in eternity. Do you have any idea how emotionally destructive that is? On the night before the crucifiction, Jesus knew exactly what was about to happen to Him, yet He stressed and worried over it so bad, He sweat blood. Now that is emotional stress. You can't possibly fathom how painful being separated from someone you have been One with for all eternity is. I would say the separation was infinitely more painful that the crucifiction itself, although that was probably unbearable too.

Now, have you ever had a limb chopped off or been crucified? So how can you say which one was more painful? Since you haven't experienced either, you can't say that it wasn't that bad for Jesus, or millions have had worse - because you have no clue what He went through.

And what difference does how painful it was make to its value? Do you brush off someone who gets shot in the head and say ah, it was quick - compared to someone who was tortured? Why does the person who got shot have less value than the one who was tortured? Just because they weren't killed as brutally? And there aren't many ways in human existence that compare to the brutality and suffering associate with crucifiction. Its one of the most terryfing methods of execution in history.

Magus55 · 04-18-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tabula_rasa
And, you can absolutely show this to be a true statement how?

Tabula_rasa

Because when God created the world and Humanity, He said "it was good", which means it was a success - Creation was originally a success and perfect, intended to remain that way - but God also gave us the ability to mess it up if we chose to. Which is exactly what happened.

Tabula_rasa · 04-18-2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Because when God created the world and Humanity, He said "it was good", which means it was a success - Creation was originally a success and perfect, intended to remain that way - but God also gave us the ability to mess it up if we chose to. Which is exactly what happened.

Cheese, Louise. For once, I'd like to get an honest answer to an honest question. One might think that the Bible is an absolute source of God's divine intentions, but one cannot show this to be the case. To borrow a line from yguy, Magus, next time just say "I don't know."

Tabula_rasa

Magus55 · 04-18-2003, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tabula_rasa
Cheese, Louise. For once, I'd like to get an honest answer to an honest question. One might think that the Bible is an absolute source of God's divine intentions, but one cannot show this to be the case. To borrow a line from yguy, Magus, next time just say "I don't know."

Tabula_rasa

How is that not an honest answer?

Godless Dave · 04-18-2003, 11:59 AM

How is eating a piece of fruit a crime?

Magus55 · 04-18-2003, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
How is eating a piece of fruit a crime?

Because God said don't do it, therefore doing it is going against God's sovereignty which is a sin (crime). Technically its also stealing since God said you can have any tree in the garden you want except that one. They took what wasn't theirs.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-18-2003, 11:59 AM	#19
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	How is eating a piece of fruit a crime?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.