JEST2ASK

I PERSONALLY DISAGREE .... ... without going into details that is not my observation ... granted some are able to deluded themselves to an extent yet willingfully choosing to believe or not is beyond the majority of Humans
(or so I believe )

JerryM

Well, there's good news and there's bad news.

You're right that if God has ordained that you will come to faith, then that will happen.
However, if he has not, you are still responsible for your unbelief because it is willful unbelief on your part, i.e., no one ever "wanted" to believe but was unable to do so. [/QUOTE]


Thanks for your response. I just want to make sure I understand. It seems like you're saying God picks some to whom he gives the "gift" of faith, while there are others, not so chosen, who are still held responsible if they don't have faith. Is this correct? I've studied a bit of theology, but I'm unfamiliar with this doctrine. Isn't it taught that only the Holy Spirit moves one to faith? If you're a believer, you must accept that God is sovereign. Whatever occurs must be in accordance with his will. Even human failings (due to our "free will" and "sinful nature" as they say) ultimately have to a part of God's grand universal plan. So how could I ever become a believer if it's not part of the scheme?

Violent Messiah

All answers are by atheists.........

For me to fully be an unbeliever, I have to be gnostic and know everything there is to know and learn that there is indeed no God Gods.

You might say that this line of reasoning may be applied to the IPU, Zeus, Allah and other deities, and other inexplicable phenomena like spontaneous combustion, leprechauns, elves, santa claus et.al - maybe....maybe they are true.........but believing / rejecting them play little part in a person's essence.

Sassenach

Did you just say that believing in Allah plays little part in a Muslim's essence?

Darth Dane

I'll answer more in full later to your individual posts, for now this.(I'm at work, and your posts demand and more indepth commentary than worktime allows.

Only Breath

Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not
Hindu, Buddhist, sufi or zen. Not any
religion or cultural system. I am not from
the East or the West, not out of the
ocean or up from the ground, not
natural or ethereal, not composed of
elements at all. I do not exist.

I am not an entity in this world or the
next, did not descend from Adam and
Eve or any origin story.
My place is placeless, a trace of the
traceless. Neither body or soul.

I belong to the beloved, have seen the
two worlds as one and that one call to
and know, first, last, outher, inner,
only that breath breathing human
being.

Rumi

The bold is my highlighting. If Rumi's experience of "God", doesn't exist, what is it he experienced?





DD - Love Spliff

s5o8

Thanks for the response so far, I’ve read some really good points, liked JerryM response.

I would like to think that most reasonable people would always be willing to change their point of view. In debating any topic especially one with greatly divide poles you would at least consider the points in the opposition’s argument that would sway you.

The lack of response from theists is interesting, but I will not make any conclusions yet. In my personal experience I found that theists do not often explore this string of thought. They always seem reluctant to even consider that anything could sway them. This makes arguing with them a bit pointless. :banghead:
Maybe all the theists that asked this question eventually became atheist in one form or another. I for one was heavily discouraged by the men of the cloth from exploring this string of thought. I must say this about the experience however: their “prophesy” was right in that my “questioning” lead to my expulsion from the body of Christ. :notworthy:



Back to the point though. I would require two stets of evidence, the first set will be related to proof for the existence of a god figure/creative force type god. The second stage evidence would be to convince me that this god as any interest in my sex life, the personal god scenario involving the whole religion thing. I have found that most religious folk will move very quickly between you agreeing to the possibility for existence of a god, to handing out pamphlets and inviting you to prayer meetings. I think that is were the biggest convincing needs to be done.

Inconnu

LSD?

Darth Dane

LSD?

Well, he lived more than 500 years ago. And even though LSD was teh cause of his experience, what Is his experience?

If thoughts have no physical Reality, even though they are caused or dependant of a physical brain, it doesn't explain what Thoughts are in and of themselves.

If thoughts have no physical Reality, whats to stop you from believing in other entities that has no physical Reality? If your thoughts are immateriel and you can imagine other entities, whats to stop you from believing that the non-physical "imagines" you and I?


The lack of response from theists is interesting

So you regard me as a non-theist?





DD - Love Spliff

Inconnu

Hi DD, I would say taking LSD is reasonable proof of the physical reality of thoughts. Just as a painting is physicaly real, the contents are not.

Darth Dane

Hi DD, I would say taking LSD is reasonable proof of the physical reality of thoughts. Just as a painting is physicaly real, the contents are not.

If thoughts are physical, they must be governed by the same rules as every other physical thing, like for example gravity. Which of course means that whatever you think will affect the universe at large, as wil your words and actions.

If thoughts are physical we use the mind(physical) to move our arm(physical) which moves a glass(physical], if we can affect the universe with our thoughts that are physical, we should be able to move a glass with the power of our minds, since they both are under the rule of physical entities. Why would we need our arms?

Why use one step extra of physical movement, if it would be faster to avoid it? Instead of making your physical arm move, just move the glass, all is matter anyways.





DD - Love Spliff