wildernesse

I do not know whether God is all powerful or not. I believe that It is powerful, and more powerful than humans.

I think that God is all wise, which is different from all knowing.

--tibac

I ate Pascal's Wafer

The typical theist defense is that God is omnipotent, and that he can only do that which is logically possible. Namely, God cannot create a square circle, for example.

However, such logically impossible things should be able to be done by an omnipotent entity. He should have the power to change logic in order to allow for these to happen, if he wanted to. Thus, an omnipotent deity should be able to do that which is logically possible. Of course this opens up a can of worms, and I don't really want to get into defending all that.

I don't really see why theists have a hard time imagining that God is just really powerful, instead of omnipotent. Would their deity be somehow less respectable if he could only do everything logically possible? I think this is a classic case of "my daddy can beat up your daddy," and some Christians just don't want to give up. I bet their fathers could bench press half a ton when they were young...

-Nick

Soul Invictus

That's one issue I have with the whole omnipotence concept. It's too fanastic in nature. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with my god not being omnipotent, because the concept itself is more likely to stem from an uncompensated ego from a human than a concept God would want to portray to his followers about his attributes...

Radorth

This thread is doubtless intended to bait Christians

Yes, but he chooses not to excercise it because he wants as many willing servants as he can get, not the kind of conscripts which evil humans are willing to take by force. (See history of modern China and Iraq for further details)

I know where this is going, so let me say that IMO, atheist whining about God would only increase if he messed with the laws of physics, or logic, or otherwise interfered as some insist a "good" God would do. One can only imagine the outcry when he does begin to forcibly prevent sin. Should he forcibly prevent poor people from having babies, for example? Wait. I know. He should just make lazy people rich, or better yet, make hard working robots out of us all.

A much better, less rhetorical, and question wisely avoided by atheists is: Must God be omnipotent as you define it to be good?

There is some evidence he is not. He seems surprised at one point how evil the world had become.

Why do I do this.

:banghead:

Rad

Muffinstuffer

I don't know but I'm sitting this one out. I'll pray for you though. Hee hee.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

Yeah, that seems true enough. It seems to stem from egotistical humans. They can't be omnipotent, but if they can be friends with somebody who is... I just wish I understood why they can't be happy with a deity who is "really, really powerful." Ah well, so it goes.

I wonder. Do you suppose that in their self-righteousness they are projecting their own egos onto their invisible friend? The Christian claims to be humble, yet goes on boasting about how powerful his "friend" is. It seems like displaced egotism to me, but that's just a speculation.

-Nick

Radorth

Not sure I need it as much as the amateur psychoanalysts

Of course you just said we feel impotent. Now you are saying we, the impotent, are projecting our own egotism onto God? Is there a REAL psychoanalyst in the house to run this one by?

Agreed.

Rad

Conchobar

Let us assume that the universe was created by an entity that we call God. I am an agnostic, but lets have us all, theists and atheists agree on this rhetorical premise.

Is God conscious?

Everything that we know for its reality directly that is conscious is an animal. It has a nervous system of neurons, axons, synapses to dendrites, and complex pathways from various locations of the brain to the other. Consciousness in all cases is dependent on a brain stem scattered nucleus of neurons called the Ascending Reticular Activating System (ARAS), which activates higher diencephalic centers, septal and pre-optic nuclei, which then activate acetylcholine receptor dendrites in the cerebral cortex.

Do we know of anything without those structures that is conscious? No. Plants and minerals do not have these and show no evidence of consciousness.

Consciousness appears to be a physiological function in animals for survival and adaptation. It along with some instinct or cognitive skill, is necessary to 1. find food, 2. avoid predators, and 3. find a mate if sexual reproduction is necessary. God is spirit and immortal by definition. Therefore, it is a given that he does not require food. He can't fear a predator as a immortal spirit, and being immortal one needs no reproduction or the heavens would be crowded with omnipotent, immortal gods. In short, God needs no consciousness nor cognition.

God is defined by some as spiritual (i.e. not matter, energy, nor wave forms.) That is why God cannot be studied, observed, measured, or tested in any way.

Now we are assuming God to be the Creator. That means we must chose what definition of God fits the description.

A. God is a conscious cognitive being who created the universe for no obvious reason, since it was presumably a conscious decision. Our culture further defines god has having personality or three personalities. He has human traits of affect, cognition, and virtues/vices as outlined in the Bible. He is the Anthropomorphic God of Islam, Judaism, Christianity.

B. God is conscious but of a type totally unhuman. He may be a summary of physical laws, and make matter and energy universes by unknown mechanisms.

C. God may be a non-conscious, completely non-cognitive force of an essence that is not matter, energy, or wave form but we cannot see or measure. It's function may be to push matter from other dimensions through black holes or bubbles in the fabric of vacuum whatever. But he/it does this because it is his/its property to do so, not necessarily a conscious decision but activated by the current state of the cosmos at the time.

So which is it? I reject the Abrahamic God, anthropomorphic, because if the Bible is the definition, that god does not deserve to be worshipped. He is evil and cruel. He has temper rages, vindictiveness, injustice, lack of mercy (creating Hell.) He is a reflection of the Israelite/Hebrew tribal medicine men who created the various gods that Moses merged into one. That one god, JHWY, is a cosmic human with all of humanity's vices and few virtues. He is so unlikely that believing in him is not an option for me.

How about the Conscious non-human god? He is of course more plausible than the anthropomorphic god. We cannot see him, hear him, or measure him in any way. So he remains hypothetical. He has noting to rule him out, either. The only problem is whether consciousness and cognition are even needed.

The final one is the inanimate, non-conscious, non-cognitive force that's function is to deform the fabric of the cosmos which perhaps just inadvertently results in the formation of a universe or a Big Bang. Whether that is interdimensional or something else we have no way to tell.

I think the non-conscious, non-cognitive God/creator makes the most rational sense because unlike God no. 2, I see no need for that entity to possess consciousness. Most things do not have what they do not need. God doesn't need to be a conscious thinker.

Thinking consciousness is an adaptation for survival in animals that evolved for feeding, escaping predation, and mating. Only animals need this property.

Conchobar

I ate Pascal's Wafer

Yup. Many xians aren't willing to admit that their God can't do everything. They aren't content with a really, really powerful deity. They want the all-powerful, do anything kind of god. Why is that? That they are projecting their own egotism is as good a reason as any. Do you have any others?

Ad. Hom. That I don't have a psychology degree does not mean that my argument is flawed. If you think my argument is bad, then take it up with the argument, not with my credentials.

-Nick

Radorth

That depends on what you mean by "everything." You need to be specific because if he could contradict himself, for example, he would not be a good God. Ironically the contradictions in atheist thinking demand, in effect, a God who contradicts himself, or at least does the most ludicrous things. They want him to make bullets fly backwards into cop killers. They insist on personal responsibility, yet say an extant God is by definition irresponsible and uncaring because he made us capable of doing evil. They want him to reach down with 16,000 hands and whack child abusers over the head. They say Christians are robots, then insist God should have made us so we could never sin. They want OTHER people to be more accountable to him, for example, but never of course themselves. They want him to put an end to evil in the world, but of course THEY reserve the right to decide what that is.

It's ludicrous really.

No he can't do everything. He can't interfere with my free choices while letting you get an abortion. He can't force people to do what is right and expect them to ever love him. He can't allow free will when you say so and not allow it when I say so.

Why don't you put on your thinking cap instead of you hypercrite cap, and describe your ideal God to me? Then we can compare him with the one we have.

Of course you've already not answered one fair and specific question, so I don't suppose that one will get much shrift either.

Er, yeah. We simply find the Gospel stories for the most part irrefutable, and that is why we believe. We see Intelligent Design, everywhere we look, and so we believe. No need to speculate on some deep, dark motives here. And of course, if we believed for your cynical reasons, we'd soon dump him for not working physical miracles all the time. We don't all NEED God to be anything just, and slow to condemn us, I suppose.

Personally, I don't think anyone CAN come to Christ and be either proud or self-righteous. Quite the contrary. I'm afraid the egotism and self righteousness is more likely to be found in a non-Christian. The Christian surely has no need of egotism or self-righteousness. In fact that's the whole point of being Christian- that you can be unrighteous and be saved because God will make up the difference through Christ. That's the main reason I'm a Christian, and I think most Christians are.

Rad