Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 07-31-2002, 07:01 AM

Helen, thanks for the reply. I know there are more than two Christians posting on these boards, so I hope some others will weigh in! This is a serious question, and I hope the way I worded it hasn't caused people to take it less seriously.

When I ask questions like this, it is because I am trying to understand what other people believe, often things that seem to be contradictory or mutually exclusive. In many cases I suspect that self-identified Christians avoid asking themselves these questions.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

HelenM · 07-31-2002, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by MrDarwin:
Helen, thanks for the reply. I know there are more than two Christians posting on these boards, so I hope some others will weigh in! This is a serious question, and I hope the way I worded it hasn't caused people to take it less seriously.

Well, it sounded a bit like baiting to me so I wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying that it's a serious question.

When I ask questions like this, it is because I am trying to understand what other people believe, often things that seem to be contradictory or mutually exclusive. In many cases I suspect that self-identified Christians avoid asking themselves these questions.

I'm sure there are Christians who not want to deal with the more perplexing aspects of their faith.

I don't see many Christians actively posting here at present but I agree that there are more than two. Maybe you can invite the brand-new person Broken (see the Misc Discussion board) to this thread and see what he/she has to say...

love
Helen

HelenM · 07-31-2002, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by NOGO:

God must have a special pill. Take one in the morning and one at night and you will feel better.

I do!

Oh, wait, that's for something else

That's what they told me, anyway...

The problem with this Helen is that your loved ones are still in hell.

Yes but the point is that God has a way of dealing with it - and, didn't they make their own choice not to believe? How many loved ones do you think are out there, of committed Christians, that those Christians never tried to share their beliefs with??? And - the loved ones evidently chose to reject what the Christian said.

I am sure that you respect the rights of other people to make their own choices. We might not like how others choose, but...they did choose...

Trust is a wonderful thing and if you can't trust God then who can you trust?

Yep - that is what Christians would say.

The problem, however, is not trust in God but trust in Christianity, trust in the people who wrote the Gospels, trust in the people who wrote the Epistles etc.

I have very good reason not to trust them.

Then it wouldn't make sense for you to trust them, would it?

What is sad is that you do not distinguish between them and God.

I appreciate your concern.

However, I can assure you that I know the difference between the best-selling book of all time and the Invisible Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent Person whom I believe created all things and loves me

love
Helen

Eudaimonist · 07-31-2002, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:
Yes but the point is that God has a way of dealing with it - and, didn't they make their own choice not to believe?

Helen, take a moment to "choose" to believe that the Moon is made of green cheese, and I mean a sincere conviction, such that this belief has the force of integrity and you would swear under your most sacred oath that the Moon really is made of green cheese. Can you do this?

HelenM · 07-31-2002, 07:34 AM

Eudaimonist I refer you to my comments in the E of G thread about <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000501" target="_blank">'choosing to believe'</a>.

Anyway, if I believe you had a choice then I might derive comfort from that regardless of whether you really did or not. So whether you did or not is irrelevant, in a sense - all that is relevant is my belief about whether you did.

love
Helen

Broken · 07-31-2002, 07:58 AM

Well, I will give my opinon...

I really don't know how that is going to be dealt with. I have lots of questions about Heaven. What are we gonna possibly do for eternity? Worship God? Ok, well, won't that get kinda boring? Will I get in trouble for feeling this way? And of course, the question at hand. If my mom is in hell, when I get to Heaven, won't I be hurt and upset? But, I can't be, in Heaven... But, if I don't miss my mom, am I really me?

I don't know. But that doesn't mean that God hasn't got something worked out. Like stated above - it's faith. To me, faith isn't just something that describes the belief in an invisible guy in the sky, but also the belief that he has everything under control, and if I give my problems to him, I don't need to worry about them any more. It is the belief that no matter how things appear, he is in gentle control.

Now, this obviously conflicts with logic, and some people would say that people with this sort of faith are just part of the herd, blinded. I guess that will be the consequence. As a logically thinking person (Or at least I would like to think I am...a little

)I can see the flaws, and the inconsistencies. I can see where some would see Christianity, as a whole, as a farce, so clearly foolish, no one should take it seriously.

I know how I look. But that is faith.

To sum up, I have no idea how I would be able to deal with being in Heaven without a loved one, but I believe that God has everything taken care of.

MrDarwin · 07-31-2002, 08:52 AM

Broken, thanks for your comments.

Can you imagine yourself, under any circumstances, not mourning, grieving, or being unhappy that somebody you love is in pain, or otherwise coming to harm?

Do you want to be able to grieve or mourn?

Zippy · 07-31-2002, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:
The problem with this Helen is that your loved ones are still in hell.

Yes but the point is that God has a way of dealing with it - and, didn't they make their own choice not to believe?

I'm sorry, but I cannot let a comment like that pass unchallenged.

Do you honestly think that atheists do not CHOOSE not to believe? I never made that choice. I am simple incapable of accepting a clearly fictional story as truth. It's not a choice, there's no choice to make.

Quote:

I am sure that you respect the rights of other people to make their own choices. We might not like how others choose, but...they did choose...

Wrong. Even the overwhelming majority of Christians do not choose - their religion is something forced into them. It's not something they 'choose' to believe in.

Paul

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Zippy ]

HelenM · 07-31-2002, 10:18 AM

Hi Zippy,

I referred Eudaimonist to the thread in E of G about choosing to believe where I have posted some of my thoughts on this.

I think it's somewhat complex, the extent to which we choose our beliefs. I don't think it's generally like - one day we wake up and decide to believe something we thought was ridiculous, until then.

But I do think that we are continually making small choices whether to believe something is credible or not. And the combined effect of those small choices can add up to significantly different beliefs, for different people.

I hope this makes some sort of sense to you.

Btw - some people might think I equivocate a lot. But - in the middle of my own life I have the confusing issue of not knowing how much choice I had over getting mentally ill to the point of being psychotic...of wondering whether I could have prevented it or not. Some would assume no - but, to me, it's complex. I think it would be foolish to deny that my own perplexity over how much choice I have, is bound to have an effect on how I understand 'choice' in general.

love
Helen

GeoTheo · 07-31-2002, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:


Have you missed that this is the Secular Web, Mr Darwin? There aren't many Christians here...it's not an easy place for a Christian to be. Can you guess why, perhaps?

If you are sincere in wanting a Christian answer you can go ask a pastor...if you dare...or would you rather just ask in a place where you know that almost everyone is not only not a Christian but many of them are full of objections to the Christian faith?

Anyway here's a Christian answer...Christians do something known as 'trusting God'. They believe that God will have a way of them retaining their identities in heaven and yet not be heartbroken if they have loved ones in hell. They don't know exactly how He will do that but they trust that He will.

If you trust someone you don't need all the answers. I daresay you do trust various people. Well, Christians trust God.

love
Helen

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]

Hey Helen,
You are pretty smart.
I liked your answer a lot.
In Christ
Ted
P.s.
I used to be Theo the Logian
I used to get annoyed at you but I realize it was pride on my part.

07-31-2002, 07:01 AM	#11
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Helen, thanks for the reply. I know there are more than two Christians posting on these boards, so I hope some others will weigh in! This is a serious question, and I hope the way I worded it hasn't caused people to take it less seriously. When I ask questions like this, it is because I am trying to understand what other people believe, often things that seem to be contradictory or mutually exclusive. In many cases I suspect that self-identified Christians avoid asking themselves these questions. [ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

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07-31-2002, 07:09 AM	#12
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Originally posted by MrDarwin: Helen, thanks for the reply. I know there are more than two Christians posting on these boards, so I hope some others will weigh in! This is a serious question, and I hope the way I worded it hasn't caused people to take it less seriously. Well, it sounded a bit like baiting to me so I wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying that it's a serious question. When I ask questions like this, it is because I am trying to understand what other people believe, often things that seem to be contradictory or mutually exclusive. In many cases I suspect that self-identified Christians avoid asking themselves these questions. I'm sure there are Christians who not want to deal with the more perplexing aspects of their faith. I don't see many Christians actively posting here at present but I agree that there are more than two. Maybe you can invite the brand-new person Broken (see the Misc Discussion board) to this thread and see what he/she has to say... love Helen

07-31-2002, 07:18 AM	#13
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Originally posted by NOGO: God must have a special pill. Take one in the morning and one at night and you will feel better. I do! Oh, wait, that's for something else That's what they told me, anyway... The problem with this Helen is that your loved ones are still in hell. Yes but the point is that God has a way of dealing with it - and, didn't they make their own choice not to believe? How many loved ones do you think are out there, of committed Christians, that those Christians never tried to share their beliefs with??? And - the loved ones evidently chose to reject what the Christian said. I am sure that you respect the rights of other people to make their own choices. We might not like how others choose, but...they did choose... Trust is a wonderful thing and if you can't trust God then who can you trust? Yep - that is what Christians would say. The problem, however, is not trust in God but trust in Christianity, trust in the people who wrote the Gospels, trust in the people who wrote the Epistles etc. I have very good reason not to trust them. Then it wouldn't make sense for you to trust them, would it? What is sad is that you do not distinguish between them and God. I appreciate your concern. However, I can assure you that I know the difference between the best-selling book of all time and the Invisible Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent Person whom I believe created all things and loves me love Helen

07-31-2002, 07:34 AM	#15
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Eudaimonist I refer you to my comments in the E of G thread about <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000501" target="_blank">'choosing to believe'</a>. Anyway, if I believe you had a choice then I might derive comfort from that regardless of whether you really did or not. So whether you did or not is irrelevant, in a sense - all that is relevant is my belief about whether you did. love Helen

07-31-2002, 07:58 AM	#16
Broken Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 144	Well, I will give my opinon... I really don't know how that is going to be dealt with. I have lots of questions about Heaven. What are we gonna possibly do for eternity? Worship God? Ok, well, won't that get kinda boring? Will I get in trouble for feeling this way? And of course, the question at hand. If my mom is in hell, when I get to Heaven, won't I be hurt and upset? But, I can't be, in Heaven... But, if I don't miss my mom, am I really me? I don't know. But that doesn't mean that God hasn't got something worked out. Like stated above - it's faith. To me, faith isn't just something that describes the belief in an invisible guy in the sky, but also the belief that he has everything under control, and if I give my problems to him, I don't need to worry about them any more. It is the belief that no matter how things appear, he is in gentle control. Now, this obviously conflicts with logic, and some people would say that people with this sort of faith are just part of the herd, blinded. I guess that will be the consequence. As a logically thinking person (Or at least I would like to think I am...a little )I can see the flaws, and the inconsistencies. I can see where some would see Christianity, as a whole, as a farce, so clearly foolish, no one should take it seriously. I know how I look. But that is faith. To sum up, I have no idea how I would be able to deal with being in Heaven without a loved one, but I believe that God has everything taken care of.

07-31-2002, 08:52 AM	#17
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Broken, thanks for your comments. Can you imagine yourself, under any circumstances, not mourning, grieving, or being unhappy that somebody you love is in pain, or otherwise coming to harm? Do you want to be able to grieve or mourn?

07-31-2002, 10:18 AM	#19
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Hi Zippy, I referred Eudaimonist to the thread in E of G about choosing to believe where I have posted some of my thoughts on this. I think it's somewhat complex, the extent to which we choose our beliefs. I don't think it's generally like - one day we wake up and decide to believe something we thought was ridiculous, until then. But I do think that we are continually making small choices whether to believe something is credible or not. And the combined effect of those small choices can add up to significantly different beliefs, for different people. I hope this makes some sort of sense to you. Btw - some people might think I equivocate a lot. But - in the middle of my own life I have the confusing issue of not knowing how much choice I had over getting mentally ill to the point of being psychotic...of wondering whether I could have prevented it or not. Some would assume no - but, to me, it's complex. I think it would be foolish to deny that my own perplexity over how much choice I have, is bound to have an effect on how I understand 'choice' in general. love Helen

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