svensky

You might want to think about giving some weight to the idea. There are examples in the NT where demons are not blamed for causing an illness. So clearly not everything was attributed to demons. these people obviously knew what a disease was and how to tell the difference.

Jason

excreationist

I wonder what the difference was in those cases though... I mean it doesn't say that the demons in those cases begged Jesus for mercy or a give-away like that.

So about what you were saying earlier... in Jesus's time, there was a lot of demon possession. It seems that it is less common today. Do you have any evidence that it happens at all in recent times?

sidewinder

The Christian view of the natural world according to the NT is that it's worthless and meaningless. It's just here for humans to have some place to live and die. It's all about gaining eternal life with God. Nothing else matters. Jesus tells his followers to stop the normal courses of their lives because none of it matters since the Kingdom of God is coming to Earth very soon. Paul basically teaches the same thing.

It is taught in the NT that this world is full of sin and evil and that Christians should not associate themselves with the normal course of the everyday world because it's not Christian. Paul teaches that the natural state of man is full of sin and evil and that somehow people need to be saved from this condition.

You get the idea. This view of the world is sick and it's unfortunate that many Christians still hold to it. It's an ancient view of the world which no longers applies. Humans have discovered that people and the universe we inhabit is much more complex than what the ancients knew.

Christian salvation is an ancient response to the world as lived by people in a particular area of the world. Paul had a particular view of the problems of the human condition and he devised, along with other early Christians, a scheme of salvation to solve the problems of the human condition. I think he was completely wrong but I understand why he had these views because he lived in ancient times and didn't have the knowledge that we have.

Some random thoughts...

svensky

How do you know there was a lot of demon possesion ?
It could easily be an uncommon affliction. Christ gets mentioned a bit healing it (but not exclusivly), becasue he was able to. There is no reason to presuppose that it was a common condition.

Secondly, as I said there is anecdotal evidence from missionaries to india and the like.

Lastly, assuming demon possesion was going on in the west, given the extreme anti-supernatural bias of modern psychiatry and psychology how would one of the people most likely to come across a case of demon possesion know to look for it ?

Why would you expect to see a lot of demon possesion in the west anyway. Presuming the existence of demons, satan etc, our pathologically materialist western culture will reject christ becasue we dont believe in the supernatural, why would the great deceiver furnish people with proof of it ?

Just some thoughts.

BTW would you like me to furnish you with some anecdotal evidence from missionaries (assuming they put it up on the web some where).

Jason

svensky

Dont watch the news then ?

Jason

Bill Snedden

Do you really think that what you see in the news accurately reflects the condition of the average man?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

sidewinder

LOL...yeah, the nightly news with Tom Brokaw or the Fox and Friends morning show with their wacky hosts really report the true nature of the human condition.

Jamie_L

When the evangelical Christian in the OP hangs out with friends and plays cards, or goes fishing, or plays catch with his kids, does he stop and cognitively think about the fact that his feelings come from God and how his enjoyment of the situation would be meaningless if not for God?

Or does he just have fun and enjoy the things he is doing for what they are?

If he doesn't need to consciously think about God to enjoy common, everyday situations, then why should the absence of God change the way he feels about those situations.

I live my life because that's what I've got. I could piss and moan about the state of the universe, but it wouldn't do me much good. I've got better things to do - like play cards, fish, and play with my kids.

Jamie

svensky

Not strictly, but to claim that the world is not a place that suffers from corruption and evil is to have blinders on.

That was my point.

Jason

excreationist

Well in the NT, everyone referred to it as "demon possession" - so it was common knowledge and quite widespread. The people seemed to treat demon possession as normal - but it was the exorcism that amazed them. (As well as other miracles)

Which missionaries? Do they have names?

from <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_exor3.htm#poop" target="_blank">ReligiousTolerance.org - distinguishing between demon possession and schizophrenia</a>:
Demon possession:

Reaction towards Christianity- Aversion

Conversations with others- Rational

Knowledge- Beyond that obtained by normal learning

Effects on other people- Paranormal effects: poltergeist, levitation, mental telepathy, etc. None

Admit to being possessed? No voluntary admission
....

So basically there are obviously some supernatural phenomena involved. (Unless you're possessed by a boring mute demon that robs you of speech - or a spirit that cripples your back)

Well I guess satan and his demons would get pretty bored hiding then. Why doesn't God provide some more evidence of the supernatural then... I guess that would make it "too easy" to believe then. (I mean what's the point of building a lake of fire if it doesn't get used?!)

There is also anecdotal evidence for bigfoots and alien abductions... I think more evidence than that is required... e.g. reports from doctors or something.