Heathen Dawn

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You got me right there... there's my struggle with pagan religions - the same snivelling worship of gods I get in the monotheistic religions. My trouble is that I'm not just anti-mystical like any secular humanist, I partake of mysticism in that I desire experience (of nature) rather than study. Could be called "seeker of non-mystical initiation", however that sounds like an oxymoron.

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I took an interest in Scientific Pantheism, which Panta Pei referred me to in a link. Sounds OK, but then I have my reservations about the "scientific" in "scientific pantheism". As I said, I seek not to study nature but to experience it. Science is the study of nature, and I don't want to study.

Secular Paganism. All right, but as opposed to Wicca, where can I find a group? I've found a local Wiccan group on the Internet, and they've invited me to a Full Moon Ritual. Can the same be true for secular paganism? I don't find any secular pagan group on the Witchvox directory. Secular paganism is my way to go, but I'm very much afraid it will be a solitary path, and I don't want to practise alone. I'm looking for like-minded individuals; it's been quite difficult to find the Wiccan group, so how much more so to find a group of secular pagans...

Aquila ka Hecate

Hi Heathen Dawn, once again.

No groups to belong to?

Do what I've just done: say "stuff it" and start your own!
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/secularpaganism/" target="_blank">Terri's Newl-formed secular paganism for South Africans!(1 member only!)</a>

Feels good.

Heathen Dawn

Haha, that proves my point... I know this was well-meant as a joke, but I'm really seriously looking for a group to practise my religion with.

Aquila ka Hecate

Hmm,
not so much of a joke, really, HD.

I'd also like to find people who think as I do.

However, being a hell of an elitist, I don't hold out a lot of hope that such people exist in South Africa.

On the other hand, I'm really and truly offering a place to meet if there are other secular pagans in my country.

(what's with my spelling this morning?Is it the retrograde mercury?)

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: Aquila ka Hecate ]</p>

Heathen Dawn

I'm so confused...

On the one hand, I see all the talk about gods and mysteries and spells and magic as nonsense, and I have an aversion to all that kind of mystical stuff. I like nature and I want to busy myself with nature alone.

On the other hand, I crave the experience of the "Totally Other" which mystic religion can offer. I desire to be initiated into mysteries, to transcend the mundane.

Reading those books by Cunningham and Reed, and debating them on the forums, have made me even more confused. I'm not a pure naturalist, and I'm not a theist or mystic either. Damn it, I don't know exactly what I am or want to be! I've reached some sort of junction in my life where I don't know what's next.

I wish there were "mysteries of nature" I could be initiated into. I wish I could gain the experience of the "Totally Other" without delving into occult-magickal concepts, gods and all. I wish I had something that really appealed to my emotions. I wish nature could be a religion just as gods are.

Please don't laugh at me, although the temptation to do so is great. I really do feel like I'm in a jam now. I'm seeking... seeking... groping... not finding the way... darn it! Grrr...

trientalis

HD, you have my sympathies. Good luck in finding what you need. You may just have to "brew your own", though, if you know what I mean.

Aquila, nice choice substituting the four forces for the Watchtower Guardians. Good luck with your new group.

Jesse

Heathen Dawn:
I wish there were "mysteries of nature" I could be initiated into. I wish I could gain the experience of the "Totally Other" without delving into occult-magickal concepts, gods and all.

The term "mysticism" is often used to mean magical beliefs like astrology, but it really has more to do with the direct experience of the "Totally Other" you're talking about (which in many traditions is thought to be not just an 'other' but also the 'true self' of us all, somehow)...there are a lot of techniques out there which are supposed to facilitate these experiences, from meditation to psychedelic drugs to weird breathing exercises. Maybe something like this would be up your alley, I dunno.

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: Jesse ]</p>

Panta Pei

You forgot the best one of them all...but, I'm not sure if I should go there in mixed company.

Perchance

Heathen Dawn,

You have my best wishes. I do hope you find what you're seeking.

I have undergone experiences that I would consider 'mystical' while contemplating nature, but also while reading the written word or listening to music. Keep in mind that our imaginations are so creative and fertile that we can often maintain a sense of mystery even if we 'really' know there's nothing there. And just because some parts of the natural world are explained doesn't mean that our appreciation need be any less.

Paraphrased from memory, so it may not be 100% accurate:

"If you want to know about the sea, you ask a marine biologist. But if you ask the sea, what does it say? Grumble grumble swish swish. It is too busy being itself to know anything about itself."--Ursula K. LeGuin.

Perhaps the experience of being is also part of what you're seeking?

Again, good luck.

-Perchance.

brighid

Heathen Dawn,

I understand you desire for these “mystical” experiences. I wish they were indeed true and that I could magically place myself in some other realm, like that of a Marion Zimmer Bradley Novel or that of Tolkein. Try as I might in my past as a believer, no such thing happened. I too have had some pretty awesome “mystical” experiences before and after my deconversion. It is one of the things that keeps me coming back to Circle. But I also know the world of my fantasies is just a creative extension of my imagination, and at times those thoughts are an escape from the real world.

Paganism, specifically Wicca IS confusing! It is confusing because it is not dogmatic, because there is no central Church and in general, pagans/Wiccans DO NOT want to be told how they should think, worship, act or do! Selena Fox, Scott Cunningham, or any one else for that matter cannot claim authority in the realm of neo-paganism. They can provide their opinions, and their experiences and even publish books proclaiming their opinions but that is ALL that they are.

Take what you like from what ever book you read (pagan or otherwise) and construct the emotional/religious experience you need for this point of your journey.

After living a life raised as a good Catholic girl I needed another outlet to reconcile all the things I found wrong with Catholicism. Paganism was that bridge and that bridge allowed me the freedom to question and explore all things. That bridge led me to paganism and for a short while I was a believer. Now I find myself as a secular pagan. Some find the Unitarian Church to be a perfect place to address their communal and emotional needs. The one in my area leaves a bit to be desired at this point and perhaps you don’t have one near you. But you don’t need a group to begin this journey.

I know you are going through some REALLY rough times right now and that this path holds some promise. Explore it fully, question everything and come to your own conclusions. That is the ONLY way to go in my humble opinion. Don’t waste too much energy in confusion about what is right or wrong in Wicca/paganism. In the end you might find this isn’t right for you or you may decide to embrace a personal version that honors your secular and emotional/religious needs. To borrow the famous quote – to thine own self be true.

Brighid