Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Oresta · 10-11-2003, 06:42 PM

Far be it from me to hi jack this most excellent thread, but I cannot resist underlining the above line for those who who insist our nantion is soverign under some sort of supernatural agenda rather than the We the People.
But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them.

Buffman · 10-12-2003, 03:34 AM

...the need for a Bill of Rights (which I still believe was at least partly motivated by politics given his earlier opposition).

I agree...although I would be inclined to modify "politics" with "pragmatic."

1. By the time the Convention ended, I suspect that Madison knew that further issue debate could well be counter-productive.

2. He was aware that the Constitution had been constructed on compromise and that 16 (of the 55) attendees did not sign the final draft. He also knew that the anti-federalist ranks contained some very powerful and influential individuals.

3. Madison, Hamilton and Jay set about propagandizing the public with "The Federalist Papers" in order to gain state legislative support.

4. Having just vigorously defended the Constitution as published, I suspect that Madison would have been loathe to suddenly start considering and introducing amendments. He would attempt to argue that all concerns were already covered in the basic document.

5. The anti-Federalists were clamoring for a Bill of Rights in order to undermine the entire Constitution. However, Madison started receiving Jefferson's extremely strong views about the necessity of a Bill of Rights. (At that point, he knew that he needed Jefferson on his side in any major political battle over the Constitution. Thus, Madison reconsidered his position on amendments.)

Like fromtheright, I suspect that Madison decided that if the Constitution was going to be ratified by the state legislators, then he better undermine the anti-federalist's best argument and allow the states to submit amendments. Not only did he change his tune overnight, he took over leading the choir. He arranged the music presented to the Congress by becoming the champion for a Bill of Rights and organizing those state recommended amendments into the final 12 that were returned for their ratification.

(Initially, I suspect that Madison, and others, thought that these amendments could be integrated into the basic document rather than as stand alone rights. But that is more a guess than a currently verifiable opinion.)

StrictSeparationist selected two of my favorites.

I, like Oresta, remain in awe of Jefferson and Madison.

fromtheright · 10-12-2003, 01:53 PM

Buffman,

It was also interesting to read, in From Parchment to Power: How Madison Used the Bill of Rights to Save the Constitution (by Robert A. Goldwin), how Madison used his leading role in pursuit of the Bill of Rights to prevent structural changes in the from of government.

cjack · 10-12-2003, 02:05 PM

On the lighter side, Ben Frankin wrote plenty of humor...

"Some have learnt may Tricks of sly Evasion,
Instead of Truth they use Equivocation.
And eke it out with mental Reservation,
Which is to good Men an Abomination.

Our Smith of late most wonderfully swore,
That whilst he breathed he would drink no more,
But since, I know his Meaning, for I think
He meant he would not breathe whilst he did drink."

Buffman · 10-12-2003, 03:27 PM

fromtheright

Holy smoke! I just read the Amazon excerpts. I could have shortened my previous post to doing what you did... recommending that folks read "From Parchment to Power." R.A. Goldwin appears to have done a wonderful, and accurate, job of tying everything together. (I now change 'my guess' to 'my opinion.')

Toto · 10-12-2003, 06:38 PM

From Parchment to Power: How James Madison Used the Bill of Rights to Save the Constitution by Robert A. Goldwin

Shake · 10-13-2003, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Javaman
"Be civil to all; sociable to many; familiar with few; friend to one; enemy to none."
-- Benjamin Franklin
I might add a few more friends but I follow this to the best of my ability.

I agree with your sentiments on this quote. I added this one to a file of good quotes which I've been compiling ... mainly taken from posts on these boards. Here's another good one from ol' Ben:

Quote:

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."

And then, I'm not sure if this one's already been posted but here it is:

Quote:

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, ' thus building a wall of separation between church and state."
--Thomas Jefferson

Majestyk · 10-13-2003, 11:17 AM

Dr. Benjamin Franklin, Saturday June 2nd, Federal Convention of 1787, Philidelphia

Quote:

Sir, there are two passions which have a powerful influence on the affairs of men. These are ambition and avarice; the love of power, and the love of money. Separately each of these has great force in prompting men to action; but when united in view of the same object, they have in many minds the most violent effects. Place before the eyes of such men, a post of honour that shall be at the same time a place of profit, and they will move heaven and earth to obtain it. The vast number of such places it is that renders the British Government so tempestuous. The struggles for them are the true sources of all those factions which are perpetually dividing the Nation, distracting its Councils, hurrying sometimes into fruitless & mischievous wars, and often compelling a submission to dishonorable terms of peace. And of what kind are the men that will strive for this profitable pre-eminence, through all the bustle of cabal, the heat of contention, the infinite mutual abuse of parties, tearing to pieces the best of characters? It will not be the wise and moderate; the lovers of peace and good order, the men fittest for the trust. It will be the bold and the violent, the men of strong passions and indefatigable activity in their selfish pursuits. These will thrust themselves into your Government and be your rulers. � And these too will be mistaken in the expected happiness of their situation: For their vanquished competitors of the same spirit, and from the same motives will perpetually be endeavouring to distress their administration, thwart their measures, and render them odious to the people.

Javaman · 10-13-2003, 12:19 PM

BTW, for those who don't know, Cliff Walker's Site has loads of quotes. Check 'em out if you haven't seen them already.

fromtheright · 10-13-2003, 09:32 PM

So, Buffman, what's your favorite quote?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-11-2003, 06:42 PM	#11
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	Far be it from me to hi jack this most excellent thread, but I cannot resist underlining the above line for those who who insist our nantion is soverign under some sort of supernatural agenda rather than the We the People. But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them.

10-12-2003, 03:34 AM	#12
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	...the need for a Bill of Rights (which I still believe was at least partly motivated by politics given his earlier opposition). I agree...although I would be inclined to modify "politics" with "pragmatic." 1. By the time the Convention ended, I suspect that Madison knew that further issue debate could well be counter-productive. 2. He was aware that the Constitution had been constructed on compromise and that 16 (of the 55) attendees did not sign the final draft. He also knew that the anti-federalist ranks contained some very powerful and influential individuals. 3. Madison, Hamilton and Jay set about propagandizing the public with "The Federalist Papers" in order to gain state legislative support. 4. Having just vigorously defended the Constitution as published, I suspect that Madison would have been loathe to suddenly start considering and introducing amendments. He would attempt to argue that all concerns were already covered in the basic document. 5. The anti-Federalists were clamoring for a Bill of Rights in order to undermine the entire Constitution. However, Madison started receiving Jefferson's extremely strong views about the necessity of a Bill of Rights. (At that point, he knew that he needed Jefferson on his side in any major political battle over the Constitution. Thus, Madison reconsidered his position on amendments.) Like fromtheright, I suspect that Madison decided that if the Constitution was going to be ratified by the state legislators, then he better undermine the anti-federalist's best argument and allow the states to submit amendments. Not only did he change his tune overnight, he took over leading the choir. He arranged the music presented to the Congress by becoming the champion for a Bill of Rights and organizing those state recommended amendments into the final 12 that were returned for their ratification. (Initially, I suspect that Madison, and others, thought that these amendments could be integrated into the basic document rather than as stand alone rights. But that is more a guess than a currently verifiable opinion.) StrictSeparationist selected two of my favorites. I, like Oresta, remain in awe of Jefferson and Madison.

10-12-2003, 01:53 PM	#13
fromtheright Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 633	Buffman, It was also interesting to read, in From Parchment to Power: How Madison Used the Bill of Rights to Save the Constitution (by Robert A. Goldwin), how Madison used his leading role in pursuit of the Bill of Rights to prevent structural changes in the from of government.

10-12-2003, 02:05 PM	#14
cjack Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 4,294	On the lighter side, Ben Frankin wrote plenty of humor... "Some have learnt may Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation. And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination. Our Smith of late most wonderfully swore, That whilst he breathed he would drink no more, But since, I know his Meaning, for I think He meant he would not breathe whilst he did drink."

10-12-2003, 03:27 PM	#15
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	fromtheright Holy smoke! I just read the Amazon excerpts. I could have shortened my previous post to doing what you did... recommending that folks read "From Parchment to Power." R.A. Goldwin appears to have done a wonderful, and accurate, job of tying everything together. (I now change 'my guess' to 'my opinion.')

10-12-2003, 06:38 PM	#16
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	From Parchment to Power: How James Madison Used the Bill of Rights to Save the Constitution by Robert A. Goldwin

10-13-2003, 12:19 PM	#19
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	BTW, for those who don't know, Cliff Walker's Site has loads of quotes. Check 'em out if you haven't seen them already.

10-13-2003, 09:32 PM	#20
fromtheright Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 633	So, Buffman, what's your favorite quote?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.