Stormy

I started the Atkins diet to shed about ten pounds of excess baggage. I joked with friends that I would probably gain weight because I was not worrying about fat or calories. I was eating so much!!

I lost the weight in two weeks.

I am now on a maintenance diet. It is not nearly as restrictive.

I would recommend the Atkins diet. I have found it to not only work in weight loss but to also increase energy.

keyser_soze

And I went to your link, and followed the links included in the doctors pages, and noticed that they were long on rhetoric, and VERY short on numbers. Do you have any other resources? Not only were several of the links down or missing, but the ones that were up had not research in them. They were as much anecdotal as anything else put forth, including my anecdotal evidence(which I admit is anecdotal in the first place....my only caveat being that I'm a tough sell, I am one of the most cynical bastards walking around it's said). I would probably look further into it than you have.

keyser_soze

Did some quick searches and reads. I call your six links to dubious sources and give you twent or so odd to start with..(I was quite surprised one of my fellow II members would put forth a site that seems oddly akin to a YEC page, I should think we, being more critical than the average person would have searched both sides and looked for multiple sources)

BTW, my wife is up to 41 pounds lost(she's slacking off the drop and is at a more ideal weight, she is on a low maitenance plan.

And you might read these studies:


Abbasi, F., McLaughlin, T., Lamendola, C., et al., "High Carbohydrate Diets, Triglyceride-Rich Lipoproteins, and Coronary Heart Disease Risk," The American Journal of Cardiology, 85, 2000, pages 45-48.

Bravata, D.M., Sanders, L., Huang, J., et al., "Efficacy and Safety of Low-Carbohydrate Diets: A Systematic Review," The Journal of the American Medical Association, 289(14), 2003, pages 1837-1850.


Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., D’Alessio, D.A., et al., "Effects of a Low Carbohydrate Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors", College of Nursing and College of Medicine, University of Cincinnati.

This Information was presented at the 2002 Annual Meeting of the American Dietetic Association and the 2001 Annual Meeting of the North American Association for the Study of Obesity. The results have not yet been published.


Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., Daniels, S.R., et al., "A Randomized Trial Comparing a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet and a Calorie-Restricted Low Fat Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Healthy Women," The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, 88(4), 2003, pages 1617-1623.


Brown, R.C., Cox, C.M., "Effects of High Fat Versus High Carbohydrate Diets on Plasma Lipids and Lipoproteins in Endurance Athletes," Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 30(12), 1998, pages 1677-1683.
view summary Campbell, L.V., Marmot, P.E., Dyer, J.A., et al., "The High-Monounsaturated Fat Diet as a Practical Alternative for NIDDM," Diabetes Care, 17(3), 1994, pages 177-182.


Coulston, A.M, Liu, G.C., Reaven, G.M., "Plasma Glucose, Insulin and Lipid Responses to High-Carbohydrate Low-Fat Diets in Normal Humans," Metabolism, 32(1), 1983, pages 52-56.


Dreon, D.M., Fenstrom, H.A., Campos, H., et al., "Change in Dietary Saturated Fat Intake Is Correlated With Change in Mass of Large Low-Density-Lipoprotein Particles in Men," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 67, 1998, pages 828-836.


Dreon, D.M., Fernstrom, H.A., Miller, B., et al., "Low-Density Lipoprotein Subclass Patterns and Lipoprotein Response to a Reduced-Fat Diet in Men," The FASEB Journal, 8(1), 1994, pages 121-126.


Dreon, D.M., Fernstrom, H.A., Williams, P.T., et al., "A Very-Low-Fat Diet Is not Associated With Improved Lipoprotein Profiles in Men With a Predominance of Large, Low-Density Lipoproteins," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 69, 1999, pages 411-418.


Dreon, D.M., Frey-Hewitt, B., Ellsworth, N., et al., "Dietary Fat: Carbohydrate Ratio and Obesity in Middle-Aged Men," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 47, 1988, pages 995-1000.


Fagan, T.C., Oexmann, M.J., "Effects of High Protein, High Carbohydrate, and High Fat Diets on Laboratory Parameters," Journal of the American College of Nutrition, 6(4), 1987, pages 333-343.


Foster, G.D., Wyatt, H.R., Hill, J.O., et al., "Evaluation of the Atkins Diet: A Randomized Controlled Trial," Obesity Research, 9(suppl 3), abstract # 01329, 2001.


Fujita, Y., Gotto, A.M., Phil, D., et al., "Basal and Postprotein Insulin and Glucagon Levels During a High and Low Carbohydrate Intake and Their Relationships to Plasma Triglycerides," Diabetes, 24(6), 1975, pages 552-558.


Garg, A., "High-Monounsaturated-Fat Diets for Patients With Diabetes Mellitus: A Meta-Analysis," The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 67(Suppl), 1998, pages 577S-582S.


Garg, A., Bantle J.P., Henry, R.R., "Effects of Varying Carbohydrate Content of Diet in Patients With Non-Insulin-Dependent Diabetes Mellitus," Journal of the American Medical Association, 271(18), 1994, pages 1421-1428.


Garg, A., Grundy, S.M., Unger, R.H., "Comparison of Effects of High and Low Carbohydrate Diets on Plasma Lipoproteins and Insulin Sensitivity in Patients With Mild NIDDM," Diabetes, 41(10), 1992, pages 1278-1285.


Heilbronn, L.K., Noakes, M., Clifton, P.M., "Effect of Energy Restriction, Weight Loss, and Diet Composition on Plasma Lipids and Glucose in Patients With Type 2 Diabetes," Diabetes Care, 22(6), 1999, pages 889-895.


Hu, F.B., Stampfer, M.J., Manson, J.E., et al., "Dietary Protein and Risk of Ischemic Heart Disease in Women," The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 70, 1999, pages 221-227.


Kasper, H., Thiel, H., Ehl, M., "Response of Body Weight to a Low Carbohydrate, High Fat Diet in Normal and Obese Subjects," The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 26, 1973, pages 197-204.


Kerstettner, J.E., O'Brien, K.O., Insogna, K.L. "Dietary Protein Affects Intestinal Calcium Absorption," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 68(4), 1998, pages 859-865.


Krauss, R.M., Dreon, D.M., "Low-Density-Lipoprotein Subclasses and Response to a Low-Fat Diet in Healthy Men," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 62, 1995, pages 478S-487S.


Langfort, J., Zarzeczny, R., Pilis, W., et al., "The Effect of a Low-Carbohydrate Diet on Performance, Hormonal and Metabolic Responses to a 30-s Bout of Supramaximal Exercise," European Journal of Applied Physiology, 76(2), 1997, pages 128-133.


Layman D.K., Boileau, R.A., Erickson, D.J., et al., "A Reduced Ratio of Dietary Carbohydrate to Protein Improves Body Composition and Blood Lipid Profiles During Weight Loss in Adult Women," The Journal of Nutrition, 133(2), 2003, pages 411-417.


Layman, D.K., Shiue, H., Sather, C., et al., "Increased Dietary Protein Modifies Glucose and Insulin Homeostasis in Adult Women during Weight Loss," The Journal of Nutrition, 133(2),2003, pages 405-410.


Lean, M.E.J., Han, T.S., Prvan, T., et al., "Weight Loss With High and Low Carbohydrate 1200 Kcal Diets in Free Living Women," European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 51(4), 1997, pages 243-248.


Leddy, J., Hovarth, P., Rowland, J., et al., "Effect of a High or a Low Fat Diet on Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Male and Female Runners," Medical Science and Sports Exercise, 29(1), 1997, pages 17-25.


Marques-Lopes, I., Ansorena, D., Astiasaran, I., et al., "Postprandial de Novo Lipogenesis and Metabolic Changes Induced by a High-Carbohydrate, Low-Fat Meal in Lean and Overweight Men," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 73(2), 2001, pages 253-261.


McLaughlin, T., Abbasi, F., Lamendola, C., et al., "Carbohydrate-Induced Hypertriglyceridemia: An Insight Into the Link Between Plasma Insulin and Triglyceride Concentrations," Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, 85(9), 2000, pages 3085-3088.


Meckling, K.A., Gauthier, M., Grubb, R., et al., "Effects of a Hypocaloric, Low-Carbohydrate Diet on Weight Loss, Blood Lipids, Blood Pressure, Glucose Tolerance, and Body Composition in Free-Living Overweight Women," Canadian Journal of Physiology and Pharmacology, 80(11), 2002, pages 1095-1105.


Muoio, D.M., Leddy, J.J., Hovarth, P.J., et al., "Effect of Dietary Fat on Metabolic Adjustments to Maximal VO2 and Endurance in Runners," Medical Science and Sports Exercise, 26(1), 1994, pages 81-88.


O'Brien, K.D., Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., "Greater Reduction in Inflammatory Markers with a Low Carbohydrate Diet than with a Calorically Matched Low Fat Diet," Presented at American Heart Association's Scientific Sessions 2002 on Tuesday, November 19, 2002, Abstract ID: 117597.


Rabast, U., Kasper, H., Schonborn, J., "Comparative Studies in Obese Subjects Fed Carbohydrate-Restricted and High-Carbohydrate 1,000 Calorie Formula Diets," Nutritional Metabolsim, 22, 1978, pages 269-277.


Rabast, U., Schönborn, J., Kasper, H., "Dietetic Treatment of Obesity With Low and High-Carbohydrate Diets: Comparative Studies and Clinical Results," International Journal of Obesity, 3(3), 1979, pages 201-211.


Reissell, P.K., Mandella, P.A., Poon-King, T.M.W., et al., "Treatment of Hypertriglyceridemia," The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 19, 1966, pages 84-98.


Rumpler, W.V., Seale, J.L., Miles, C.W., et al., "Energy-Intake Restriction and Diet-Composition Effects on Energy Expenditure in Men," The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 53, 1991, pages 430-436.


Schlundt, D.G., Hill, J.O., Sbrocco, T. et al., "The Role of Breakfast in the Treatment of Obesity: A Randomized Clinical Trial," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 55(3), 1992, pages 645-651.


Schneeman, B.O., "Carbohydrate: Friend or Foe? Summary of Research Needs," Journal of Nutrition, 131(10), 2001, pages 2764S-2765S.


Smith, S.R., de Jonge, L., Zachwieja, J.J., et al., "Fat and Carbohydrate Balances During Adaptation to a High-Fat Diet," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 71(2), 2000, pages 450-457.


Stern, L., Iqbal, N., Chiceno, K., et al., "The V.A. Low Carbohydrate Intervention Diet (VALID) Study," Journal of General Internal Medicine, 17(S1), 2002, pages147-148. (abstract #51080)


Volek, V.S., and Westman, E.C., "Very-Low-Carbohydrate Weight-Loss Diets Revisited," Clevland Clinic Journal of Medicine, 69(11), 2002, pages 849-862.


Westerterp-Plantenga, M.S., Rolland, V., Wilson, S.A., et al., "Satiety Related to 24 h Diet-Induced Thermogenesis During High Protein/Carbohydrate vs High Fat Diets Measured in a Respiration Chamber," European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 53(6), 1999, pages 495-502.


Westman, E.C., Yancy, W.S., Guyton, J.S., "Effect of a Low Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diet Program on Fasting Lipid Subfractions," Circulation, 106(19)SII, 2002, page 727. (Abstract #3582).

Williams, P.T., Dreon, D.M., Krauss, R.M., "Effects of Dietary Fat on High-Density-Lipoprotein Subclasses Are Influenced by Both Apolipoprotein E Isoforms and Low-Density-Lipoprotein Subclass Patterns," American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 61, 1995, pages 1234-1240.


Young, C.M., Scanlan, S.S., Im, H.S., et al., "Effect on Body Composition and Other Parameters in Obese Young Men of Carbohydrate Level of Reduction Diet," The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 24, 1971, pages 290-296.


Yudkin, J., Carey, M., "The Treatment of Obesity by the 'High-Fat' Diet: The Inevitability of Calories," The Lancet, October 29, 1960, pages 939-941.

keyser_soze

I quote one of the sources you posted--

Note that I don't think "But this is both -snip-" was Mr. Westmans take on the situation, but rather the guy who posted the page...His language is a LOT less logical.

Godot

First off, what's wrong with quackwatch? While I agree that their references are a bit light, and some are out of date, I think it's funny to see the vigour with which they attack the fringes of the medical establishment. Cetainly worth a laugh or two.
Personally, I haven't put up much research to substantiate my position largely because it is a debate I see little interest in pursuing. While I'm content to discuss it, "proving" my point will invlove a lot of work I'm not prepeared to invest at the moment. It's been my experience that people will ignore whatever evidence is presented to them to "give it a go" themselves to see if it works. Besides, most people are looking for the quick fix and put little to no thought into the long term health consequences of their present dietary behaviours.
I really find it interesting that people are willing to subject themselves to diets that haven't been proven to be beneficial to the human organism. My understanding of the scientific process is that strong evidence is supplied before moving on to clinical trials. Fad diets bypass all of this to hit the market first, THEN they start to look for scientific links to substantiate their claims.
You may say that you'll feel "vindicated" once the evidence supports the action you are presently taking. How are you going to feel if it doesn't eventuate? Are you going to continue the behaviour, denying the evidence, believing that one day, you'll be proven right? If that's the chance you're willing to take, good for you. Sure as hell isn't anything I'm willing to bet on.
As for the longitudinal studies presently being performed, I have no idea as to the time interval they are using. To get a really good idea about morbidity related to low-CHO diets, you'll need quite a large window. I doubt that the present studies are aiming for a 10 or 20 year duration. Those will not eventuate until after the present round of studies are completed, and likely only if those present favourable results.
Enough rambling. I need sleep.

scigirl

Who are you talking to? The people here who don't agree with you but have actually done research on the subject? I thought everyone here was engaging in a science debate.

This might come as quite a shock to you Godot, but most people don't seek alternative medicine just to prove you wrong. It has nothing to do with you - it has everything to do with them wanting to get better. Sure wait for the studies - they take 10 or 15 years, and often their results are inconclusive. People will listen to the medical establishment up to a point - but when the medical establishment isn't working for them (or if they happen to get an arrogant doctor), then they will look for other remedies.

:banghead: I did a pubmed search last night on the Atkins diet - and it wasn't overwhelmingly negative. There were positives and negatives about it - and as many people here have pointed out - it appears to work for some people. Maybe not for the reasons Atkins said it did. So fucking what? I'm a scientist just like the next person, but I'm also a future doctor. If something is working for my patient, even if it seems to contradict what the Holy Science or Nature says, I'm not going to tell them to change it
just so I can be right.

I got the impression from your posts that you are some type of medical professional. If this is true, I surely hope that you treat your patients with more respect than you have treated members here who disagree with you. If you don't - your patients will not only seek out 'quack therapies,' but also they won't tell you about them for fear of looking stupid in your eyes.

scigirl

keyser_soze

Nuno Figueira

It is. I phrased my sentence wrong. Ketosis will only be entered when sugar intake is very low (ence the very low carb biggining fase in the Atkins diet), but after that a sligthy higher carb intake won't necessarily push you out of ketosis back to your staring point. We bodybuilders regularly use keto diets intervaled with short higher carb periods. Anyway, for ketosis to be entered there has to be, at least to some degree, and absence or very low quantity of oxaloacetic acid, a by product of carbohydrate metabolism, that prevents ketone bodies formation. So I guess you are right and my statement, writen as it was, was wrong.



Beyondveg is the place to go for that.

JGL53

I've already stated the following twice now, But I'm going to say it one more time:

I've been on a carbohydrate-controlled diet for SEVEN YEARS now and have had nothing but positive results. My experience overrules ALL the rhetoric that any and all other persons on earth can spew from now until the end of time.

Is there really anyone presently reading these words that is TOO FUCKING DENSE to understand this? Is there REALLY someone who actually reasons " Well, this guy's totally positve experience over the last seven years with this diet should not count for him, because it says YADDA YADDA YADDA in this here pronouncement by this here authority who SAYS that the scientific evidence shows that BLAH BLAH BLAH. This guy should just follow the advice of the recognised scientific experts in this field, because they're, well, the EXPERTS, not him. His experience shouldn't count for him."

I repeat, is there really someone posting to this board who sees things this way? If so, then all I can reply is: **** ***

scigirl

I think you mean, If not, right?

And of course, the asterisks stand for "dine out," right?

The trouble with doing medicine that way is that there could be other variables. I'm sure your diet is working for you - and apparently not doing any harm. However, is it the diet? The diet and other stuff? The diet and your specific genetic make-up? This is why controlled studies are so important.

When you say carb controlled -are you specifically referring to the atkins diet? Seems to me that the downsides of the atkins diet aren't the low carbs necessarly, but the high fat.

And I'm still glad that several of you in this discussion are not my primary care provider (except you Dr Rick!) Man o man you'd think we were talking about abortion at Christian forums or something! It's just fat and carbs people, nothing to start a war over!

scigirl