Freethought & Rationalism Archive

A3 · 12-07-2002, 11:42 AM

Hello BornOkTheFirstTime:

Quote:

Jesus never claimed to be god,

The Jews thought He did and tried to stone Him for it, twice. One was in John 8:58.

Quote:

and there is no reference to the Holy spirit to indicate that it is a "person".

I quite agree with you there; but what about it being a bird?

The following passages show that "Jehovah" and "Jesus" are two names for One Divine Person:
Downloaded from Rev. John Odhner, <a href="http://members.aol.com/johnodhner/Introduction.html" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/johnodhner/Introduction.html</a>
=================

Jehovah is Our Saviour -=- "Besides Me there is no Saviour"--Isaiah 43:3,10; 45:21,22;
60:16; 49:26
Jesus is Our Saviour -=- "Saviour of the World"--1 John 4; Luke 2:11; 2 Timothy 1;
Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1
-----------
Jehovah is Our Redeemer -=- As for our Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts is His
name--Jeremiah 1:34, Isaiah 47:4.
Jesus is Our Redeemer -=- Christ has redeemed us--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9;
Titus 2:14; Luke 24:21.
-----------
Jehovah is Our Creator -=- I am Jehovah who makes all things...alone, by Myself -
Isaiah 4:24
Jesus is Our Creator -=- All things were made by Him--John 1:3 All were created by
Him--Colossians 1:16
-----------
Jehovah is Our Source of Life-=-He gives life to all--Acts 17:25 He is your
life--Deuteronomy 3:20; 32:39
Jesus is Our Source of Life -=- He gives life to the world--John 6:33 I am the life--John
14:6; 11:25; 6:27-47
-----------
Jehovah is Our Father -=- Jehovah our Father--Isaiah 63:16; 64:8
Jesus is Our Father -=- Father of Eternity--Isaiah 9:6
-----------
Jehovah is The I AM -=- His name is I AM--Exodus 3:14 Jehovah (Yahweh) means
"He Is."
Jesus is The I AM -=- Before Abraham was, I AM--John 8:58 Who is, was, and is
to come--Revelation 1:8
-----------
Jehovah is Lord of Lords-=- Deuteronomy 10:17
Jesus is Lord of Lords -=- Revelation 17:14.
-----------
Jehovah is Our Shepherd -=- Jehovah is my Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:11
Jesus is Our Shepherd -=- I am the Good Shepherd--John 10:11
-----------
Jehovah is The Almighty -=- The Almighty God--Genesis 17:1; 28:3; etc. Thine is the
power--1 Chronicles 29:11; Matthew 6:18
Jesus is The Almighty -=- The Almighty--Revelation 1:8 The Mighty God--Isaiah 9:6
He has all power in heaven and earth--Matthew 28:18.
-----------
Jehovah is The Holy One -=- You alone are Holy--Isaiah 6:3 The Holy One--Isaiah
30:15; 54:5
Jesus is The Holy One -=- The Holy One--Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Acts 3:14
-----------
Jehovah is Our Light -=- Jehovah is my light--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:20
Jesus is Our Light -=- The Light of the world-- John 8:12; 1:9
-----------
Jehovah is Our Rock -=- He alone is my Rock--Psalms 62:6; 18:2
Jesus is Our Rock -=- Christ is the Rock--1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 2:8
-----------
Jehovah is Our King -=- Jehovah is King forever--Ps. 10:16
Jesus is Our King -=- King of Kings--Rev. 17:14; Matt. 21:5
-----------
Jehovah is The First and Last-=-Isa. 43:10; 41:4, 48:12
Jesus is The First and Last-=- Rev. 22:13; 1:8
-----------
Jehovah is Our Hope -=- Jehovah my Hope--Jer. 17:13, 17; 50:7
Jesus is Our Hope -=- Jesus Christ our Hope--1 Tim. 1:1
==============================
Hope this helps
Regards
Adriaan

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: A3 ]</p>

Darkblade · 12-11-2002, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roller:

That reminds me of Richard Porson who was a known skeptic when it came to belief in the Trinity. "Once, while discussing his
doubts on the doctrine of the Trinity to a friend, they both looked up,
and saw a buggy passing by them with three men in it. "There" said Porson's
friend, "is an illustration of the Trinity". Porson shot back, "No, you
must show me one man in THREE buggies, if you can"." This last part is a qute from <a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/NEWTEST2.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/NEWTEST2.TXT</a> (excellent web page)

I loved the ending of this story!

Don't bother arguing with people about the trinity; "Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything." -Robert A. Heinlein

Darkblade · 12-11-2002, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebeave:

The analogy that always come to mind for me with respect to the Trinity concept, is "The Three Stooges" (the Stooge line-up with Curly, not Shemp or God-forbid, Curly Joe!). I think one can easily grasp the 3=1 Trinity concept with such an analogy. You see, as individual Stooges, they are relatively unamusing and powerless to be funny and create chaos. But when all three are together, they are united as one giant "Stoogehead", if you will, and have then achieved , almost omnipotent power to both amuse and destroy (just like the "real" God).

Hehehe.

A3 · 12-12-2002, 07:48 AM

Hi Darkblade,

Quote:

Don't bother arguing with people about the trinity; "Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything." -Robert A. Heinlein

I can see his point, but ignoring the problem does not make it go away. After all the understanding of the basis of one's religion is the most important part of any religion. If you don't understand the basics, where do you go from there? Invent mysteries maybe??
There is very little on religion in this world that makes sense, but what would this post come close to making sense?<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000157&p=" target="_blank">Discussion about Trinity</a>

Regards
Adriaan

[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: A3 ]</p>

Vesica · 12-12-2002, 07:58 AM

Fiach -
Thanks for the intresting reply! In case you can't tell I am intrested in trinities/triads. I wanted to do research in college about the occurances of trinities and triads in world myth only to be told that there were no good academic sources on that topic...

I ended up writing a paper about early number significances/myth/but mostly the development of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity through various scholars and synods (?).

Mooman_FL · 12-12-2002, 09:54 AM

In the way I have always understood it... the trinity is best explained in man himself since we are supposedly according to the bible to be created in his image. That wasn't to mean that we physically looked like him. It only says that we were created based on a similar model. We have mind, body, and spirit. Using that model you could consider The Father to be the mind, Jesus as the body, and The Holy Spirit as just that. Some would also liken the spirit to be a manifestation of his power.

This of course depends on a belief that there is indeed a spirit or soul.

As for the person that posted that belief without proof is irrational... read my treatment of the irrationality of the denial of God in my most "Atheism or agnostic?"

Darkblade · 12-12-2002, 09:47 PM

What I meant by what I said in respect to the quote I supplied is that you can't really hope to get a reasonable explanation for how 3=1.

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12-12-2002, 07:58 AM	#55
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	Fiach - Thanks for the intresting reply! In case you can't tell I am intrested in trinities/triads. I wanted to do research in college about the occurances of trinities and triads in world myth only to be told that there were no good academic sources on that topic... I ended up writing a paper about early number significances/myth/but mostly the development of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity through various scholars and synods (?).

12-12-2002, 09:54 AM	#56
Mooman_FL Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 10	In the way I have always understood it... the trinity is best explained in man himself since we are supposedly according to the bible to be created in his image. That wasn't to mean that we physically looked like him. It only says that we were created based on a similar model. We have mind, body, and spirit. Using that model you could consider The Father to be the mind, Jesus as the body, and The Holy Spirit as just that. Some would also liken the spirit to be a manifestation of his power. This of course depends on a belief that there is indeed a spirit or soul. As for the person that posted that belief without proof is irrational... read my treatment of the irrationality of the denial of God in my most "Atheism or agnostic?"

12-12-2002, 09:47 PM	#57
Darkblade Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: I am both omnipresent AND ubiquitous. Posts: 130	What I meant by what I said in respect to the quote I supplied is that you can't really hope to get a reasonable explanation for how 3=1.

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