Jobar

"Another possibility is there were such investigative and skeptical accounts of Jesus, but they were either destroyed, or simply not preserved or copied."

And wouldn't *that* put the fox in the henhouse, if such an account were to be discovered by some archeologist? In such a manner that its authenticity were unquestionable?

Even before I started posting at these boards, I considered the tale of Jesus to be ahistorical. The lack of contemporary records of miracles performed before multitudes, coupled with the writings of Paul (who actually stated that the Messiah was 'unknown in the world'), convinces me that there was no such person. (Though of course some of the parables and teachings may have been cribbed from a real teacher/preacher of the years around Jesus' supposed lifetime.)

Jayhawker Soule

I suspect, on the contrary, that "the general consensus among learned folk" was that the gods, and all the trappings of oracle and miracle, were both real and pervasive. For example, in "The Making of Late Antiquity" by Peter Brown, the Philip and Beulah Rollins Professor of History at Princeton University, Doctor Brown writes:

Happy Wonderer

I'm always sort of curious about the intent of this question. A variant of the question is "what if you saw miracles happen today?"

The answer (for me at least) is that the question makes no sense in a freethinker's framework. The miracles recounted in the Bible did not happen, just as miracles recounted in other religious works did not happen. End of story. When you see something like that happening, you know that you are dreaming.

It is akin to asking a fundamantalist what they would think if God descended from heaven and pronounced that not only is homosexuality moral, it is required. Their answer is going to be "that is not what God said, and it isn't what he is going to say! Back off, you pervert!"

Now, lets think about those miracles for a bit. This was a time when Judea was oppressed by the Roman military occupation. Within a few years after the passion the Jews were going to crushed and dispersed after a bloody and futile struggle for independence. Getting rid of the occupation would be on every Jewish's person's mind. (Spooky parallels to today and Palestine.) See <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/jews.html" target="_blank">Here.</a>

So in this time, the Son of God descends to earth. Does he make the Romans vanish? No. We have a convenient miracle that solves a catering problem, a novel new form of marine transportation, bad horticulture, and a disappearing body. Oh, and he claims to raise ONE person from the dead. It wasn't even a great military leader or anybody who would impress the Romans (reviving King David would have gotten my attention.)

The GodMan who is going to drive the Romans away gets killed like every other insurgent who has promised to free Judea.

Would I be impressed by this record? Not hardly. He could have at least taught us the "walking on water" trick, which would have been helpful in the rebellion.

HW

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Wyrdsmyth

Do you really think all the educated and well-travelled Greeks and Romans, who travelled about the Mediterranean and Near East, and were exposed to dozens of religions and cults and god-beliefs, believed in all of them?

I often don't think we give our old world counterparts -- the ancient skeptics -- enough credit. There is this stereotype that before typewriters and electricity, everyone on earth was hopelessly gullible and superstitious and that pretty much everybody, ignorant and learned alike, believed in deities, spirits and this endless parade of invisible gods, and never questioned the assertions made by holy men and priests. I say that's bullshit.

When Our Distinguished Princeton Professor writes...

...I don't see why he couldn't be talking about certain parts of Kansas. Last week.

In the Roman empire, there were skeptics who neglected the old schools of philosophy and the old religions. They weren't as rare as you might think. Check out the dialogues of Lucian.

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

No. Nor is that what I said.

sighhswolf

I actually think the main focus on the whole aspect of the so-called "miracles" performed by Jesus, has to be examined in the proper context.
If you view and research those "eyewitness" or heresay accounts of supernatural events with a 21st century mindset, you cannot begin to understand the reactions of those who were supposedly influenced by these acts.
Neither can you pass Judgement on any informational sources or events without a feel for the political leanings of the time period.

Hence, I would be more willing to examine evidence presented by those who would have made an effort to document in some way the events
in order to use them in a confrontational manner.
Therein lies the reality, the Rabbinic authorities would have without doubt been very interested in the words and deeds of a Teacher who spoke as if he had authority from god.

If this upstart Jewish Preacher is at odds with the Rabbinic authorities, and is a constant thorn in the side of those who seek to control the population either by political oppression or religion then they would certainly be investigating the claims either themselves or clandestinely with planted informants.

The main thrust of the idea is not to justify the Rabbinic authorities, but to explore the attitudes that would have been present during the period, and how they were viewed by those in positions to know.
My personal thoughts are simply that I would be more willing to accept the words of those who were in the business of religion (and lets face it thats what it's all about anyway, profit and loss) because if there was any possibility that those miracles were actually taking place, there would have been a mad dash by political and religious authorities to immediately capitalize on the events.

And if this Jesus person was if fact performing "miracles" and those miracles were determined to be valid and sanctioned by the Rabbi's there would never have been an arrest and an execution. (if in fact these things did take place in reality).
There would more probably have been many dead Jews
because they would have seen this person as the messiah and would have used the situation to break the strangle hold of the Romans, thinking they did in fact have the true messiah to lead them with the power of god himself.

Why do you think that the Rabbi's would say that their nationalized faith does not depend upon "miracles"?---"Nationalized Faith" is the key
phrase.

The story of Jesus and his strained relationship with the Pharisees, the Rabbinic authorities, is the only really plausible piece of the Jesus puzzle.
The Rabbi's would have been skeptical and would have attempted to discover the truth, if this preacher was what he claimed to be and performed the acts of which he was attributed they had their salvation from the Roman Empire, if not then they must discredit this person before he could succeed in bringing the wrath of the Romans down on their heads with his destructive and subversive messages.

Many views of historic events are tainted by the recorders usually because of personal bigotry or national pride , but in some instances you must take into account those discriminatory views in order to ascertain the political significance of the event in question.

Anyway......
Wolf

Wyrdsmyth

Yeah... I know that's not what you said. But the point I was trying to make was that I think it's entirely possible -- even likely -- that there were ancient world skeptics who were aware of Jesus the Miracle-Worker, but just didn't make a big deal out of it... because it didn't seem like a big deal at the time.

I wonder how I'd feel if I could peek two thousand years into the future, and see people arguing over the Gospels of Elvis, and why no contemporary skeptics of his investigated the miracles he was said to have performed...

Jayhawker Soule

OK. The question then becomes one of assessing your criteria for asserting something to be "entirely possible -- even likely". Your dismssive reference to "Our Distinguished Princeton Professor" suggests one weighted in favor of personal opinion (yours) and against relevant scholarship.

sidewinder

It depends on my socio-economic status within that culture. Jesus seemed to speak mainly to those who were considered outside the bounds of the Jewish religion. These people were considered to be "sinners" and beyond being "saved" by the Jewish God. So, if I was one of these people, and I saw this wonder working man walking around, claiming authority from our God, telling me that the Kingdom of our God was coming to Earth very soon, and that I would be first into this Kingdom, then I would probably follow him. I would have no problem with his message because it was favorable toward me. However, as someone has already mentioned, if I was not one of these people, then I would not take kindly to his message. The Temple authority at the time didn't appreciate his message either and helped to hand him over to the Romans to have him eliminated.

Wyrdsmyth

My criteria is the same as that of anyone else's, including Doctor Brown's -- we read the ancient sources, compare them to each other and mull them over. Then we make inferences based on what we've read. We really don't have any other way of ascertaining what ancient people thought, other than through their own written records.

But don't take my word for it. Look at some of the ancient sources for yourself. Check out Lucian and the Skeptics, Lucretius and the Epicureans. And then you tell me how well you think that jives with your citation from Professor Brown's book.

This is from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, on the website for the University of Tennessee at Martin:

Not all scholars and historians agree just how much 'atheism' or 'skepticism' or 'freethinking' there was in the ancient Mediterranean world. People make different inferences based on the ancient sources.

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