Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 04-04-2003, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
Naaaah. The universe that we can see is finite. It would only require beings with more matter and energy at their disposal than we can see in the universe. As small a possibility as that may be it is infinitely more probable than an infinite being creating it. The existence of an infinite being in a finite universe is zero.

I suppose you could invoke the unknown, but then again, no evidence so it must taken on faith, same as being bamboozled. There is nothing wrong in just saying 'I don't know.' That would be the "truth" as opposed to the crap slung by reality challenged religion.

Starboy

Reality challenged? How are we challenged by Reality? In order for it to be reality, it has to be proven to actually be real...... which evolution and the Big Bang aren't. Atleast we fully admit that we take alot of religion on faith and belief, where as you presume to take science on fact.

Starboy · 04-04-2003, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Reality challenged? How are we challenged by Reality? In order for it to be reality, it has to be proven to actually be real...... which evolution and the Big Bang aren't. Atleast we fully admit that we take alot of religion on faith and belief, where as you presume to take science on fact.

You are so buried in it you can't see it. The bible is based on a worldview that has been out of favor for several hundred years. People no longer believe they get sick because they have sinned. People no longer explain crazy behavior with possession by a demon. When we see magic we try to figure out what the trick was we don't look for a nearby angel. We explain our surroundings using natural explanations. Many religions have this huge disconnect with reality, on Sundays you are supposed to believe in unreality and then on Monday through Saturday the universe works by natural explanations. It is funny that you say that in order for it to be reality it has to be proven to actually be real. Last time I checked when there was a question in our society if something was real it was not priests or pastors that were consulted it was scientists and engineers. That is the world we live in today. Religion is a throwback to another age. You have been bamboozled.

Starboy

Tani · 04-04-2003, 10:47 PM

btw, the big bang theory is currently under question because there is a new theory that says the speed of light actually is not a constant, and the implication of it is that the universe instead of having a big bang that started it all, it is always eternal (i only read it, but don't know how that works).

either way, i have proposed a similar scenerio before too, but instead of saying god took a bunch of people, i asked what if a year before rapture, god took the liberty to put those worshiping false idols into hell first? since the end result is still a bunch of people missing what would the remaining "saved" christians do?

Starboy · 04-04-2003, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tani
btw, the big bang theory is currently under question because there is a new theory that says the speed of light actually is not a constant, and the implication of it is that the universe instead of having a big bang that started it all, it is always eternal (i only read it, but don't know how that works).

either way, i have proposed a similar scenerio before too, but instead of saying god took a bunch of people, i asked what if a year before rapture, god took the liberty to put those worshiping false idols into hell first? since the end result is still a bunch of people missing what would the remaining "saved" christians do?

Tani, I try to keep up with what is going on in astronomy. Can you cite any scientific publications that have published such a theory? I am aware of the change in the speed of light, but what has been detected is hardly enough to account for what we see as the Big Bang. Incidentally there is a great deal more evidence for the theory other than everything moving away from each other.

Starboy

Calzaer · 04-04-2003, 11:18 PM

GAAAAH!! HELP! HELP! I'M BEING HIJACKED!! MAKE IT STOP!

MAKE IT STOP!

Starboy · 04-04-2003, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calzaer
GAAAAH!! HELP! HELP! I'M BEING HIJACKED!! MAKE IT STOP!

MAKE IT STOP!

Calzaer, your new around here. This is nothing. Look at my "serious problems with atheism as a worldview" thread. That has got to be one of the king daddys of hijacked threads.

Starboy

lpetrich · 04-04-2003, 11:29 PM

Magus55:
The only thing you have that makes you believe in Evolution is fossils and natural selection.

Magus55, have you ever heard of comparative anatomy? And embryology? And biogeography? And genetics?

There are no transitional fossils proving Evolution, so its all assumption based on incomplete Evidence.

Magus55, what would you consider a transitional fossil?

And how have you observed the Big Bang?

So what if we weren't around to see the earlier phases of the Big Bang?

We can observe the galaxies moving away from each other, and we can observe the Cosmic Microwave Background. The WMAP satellite has been observing the CMB for over 1 1/2 years now, and the observed patterns of slightly greater and less brightness are in good agreement with some speculations about the earliest state of the Universe.

I'm quite satisfied putting my Faith in God, over humans. Humans are sick, destructive, evil monsters, with or without God ( so Him existing is irrelevant when it comes to humanities evil).

If our species is so totally evil, then why not dispose of oneself and send oneself to the Heaven that one believes in?

You look forward to being in the dirt for eternity, we don't.

Wearing a white robe and singing hymns all day is NOT my idea of fun. I will concede that the Islamic Paradise is somewhat more pleasant, but that's about it.

Illithid · 04-04-2003, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Where did you hear that? The 144,000 are the Jews that aren't yet saved, but will become witnesses to God during the Tribulation. They will stay on Earth and be marked by God so no one can harm them. They, along with all who convert during the Tribulation will live during the Milennium kingdom ( provided the survive through the Tribulation).

The Rapture will take all true believers in Christ. So, lets say 2 billion Christians, maybe a Billion are actually true christians ( wild guesstimate on the number), so a billion people would be Raptured. Obviously, only God knows the exact number, but it will be a huge amount. The Bible i believe says inumerable.

No clue where you heard 144000 will be Raptured. They are all virgin male Jews, 12000 from each of the twelve tribes, who will witness to the Earth after the Rapture.

Humor, Magus. Humor. But based on my reading of the Bible, a billion is way too high an estimate. The whacked-out street corner preacher bum is the only person I see doing what Jesus told Christians to do. Of course, since his instructions were based on him coming back "real soon, now", it's not surprising that they have been so widely ignored after he failed to do so for so long. His instructions aren't really compatible with actually living a life.

But these 144,000 virgin male Jews, now... no one can harm them, but I'll definitely have to cure that nasty virginity for some of them.

lpetrich · 04-04-2003, 11:36 PM

Magus55:
Because things aren't up in the air for me. I don't believe in Aliens. Could they be real? To be logical yes i'd say its possible, although highly unlikely.

I disagree. The Universe is HUGE, and that alone makes it possible that there are extraterrestrial sentient entities -- even if the closest one is in a very distant galaxy.

Aliens just don't fit in to the Bible.

And neither do computers.

Calzaer · 04-04-2003, 11:44 PM

"I don't believe in aliens, because they don't fit in an old book written by bronze-age sheepherders about 4000 years ago."

And you wonder why we laugh at you every time we pick up our calculators and our geology textbooks.

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04-04-2003, 10:47 PM	#43
Tani Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 179	btw, the big bang theory is currently under question because there is a new theory that says the speed of light actually is not a constant, and the implication of it is that the universe instead of having a big bang that started it all, it is always eternal (i only read it, but don't know how that works). either way, i have proposed a similar scenerio before too, but instead of saying god took a bunch of people, i asked what if a year before rapture, god took the liberty to put those worshiping false idols into hell first? since the end result is still a bunch of people missing what would the remaining "saved" christians do?

04-04-2003, 11:18 PM	#45
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	GAAAAH!! HELP! HELP! I'M BEING HIJACKED!! MAKE IT STOP! MAKE IT STOP!

04-04-2003, 11:29 PM	#47
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Magus55: The only thing you have that makes you believe in Evolution is fossils and natural selection. Magus55, have you ever heard of comparative anatomy? And embryology? And biogeography? And genetics? There are no transitional fossils proving Evolution, so its all assumption based on incomplete Evidence. Magus55, what would you consider a transitional fossil? And how have you observed the Big Bang? So what if we weren't around to see the earlier phases of the Big Bang? We can observe the galaxies moving away from each other, and we can observe the Cosmic Microwave Background. The WMAP satellite has been observing the CMB for over 1 1/2 years now, and the observed patterns of slightly greater and less brightness are in good agreement with some speculations about the earliest state of the Universe. I'm quite satisfied putting my Faith in God, over humans. Humans are sick, destructive, evil monsters, with or without God ( so Him existing is irrelevant when it comes to humanities evil). If our species is so totally evil, then why not dispose of oneself and send oneself to the Heaven that one believes in? You look forward to being in the dirt for eternity, we don't. Wearing a white robe and singing hymns all day is NOT my idea of fun. I will concede that the Islamic Paradise is somewhat more pleasant, but that's about it.

04-04-2003, 11:36 PM	#49
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Magus55: Because things aren't up in the air for me. I don't believe in Aliens. Could they be real? To be logical yes i'd say its possible, although highly unlikely. I disagree. The Universe is HUGE, and that alone makes it possible that there are extraterrestrial sentient entities -- even if the closest one is in a very distant galaxy. Aliens just don't fit in to the Bible. And neither do computers.

04-04-2003, 11:44 PM	#50
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	"I don't believe in aliens, because they don't fit in an old book written by bronze-age sheepherders about 4000 years ago." And you wonder why we laugh at you every time we pick up our calculators and our geology textbooks.

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