Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sabine Grant · 05-24-2003, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by K
Sabine Grant:

It sounds like we are using two different definitions of "predestination". I'm not particularly interested in what Calvinism has to say about predestination. My only point is that if God designed each of us knowing exactly how we would make each choice, then we are predestined to behave in exactly that manner. Maybe an example will make things more clear.

Let's say I write a program that will always choose the lower number when presented with two. I may not be involved with each decision the program makes, but because of my choices at design time, the program is predestined to always pick the smaller of two numbers.

If God designed us, knowing exactly what we would do in every situation we would ever be in, and followed through creating us using that design, then we have no more free will than the program described above. We and the program have been forced through the choices of our designers to behave the way we do.

Bonjour K... I can see how you would apply the notion of no free will presenting things the way you did. I think the difference though is that I do not consider that God designed our choices. To me predestination implies a direct interference from the divine who sets is place someone's destiny no matter what their choices may be.

Sabine Grant · 05-24-2003, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
I guess my answer is in in my previous post.... let us assume that God wants us to experience that love response....that He wills to see mankind experiencing a relationship with Him as He intended for it to be.
The problem we have here is that the Ot God is so " inhumane"... He commands, delivers wrath, destroys, zaps people left and right.... then .. comes Christ considered to be the essence of the divine ... profoundly humane. He teaches principles which challenge the very character of the Ot God. He carries the alternative to how to relate to God.... the way to God then is not thru the law but thru Grace. Did God change? or did He plan to touch the mind of mankind by offering proof of His love?

I am careful to not use the word " heart" to avoid the usual comments that the heart is only an organ. Christians use the word heart to symbolize the most intimate part of a human being's emotions. As a matter of fact I wonder if non theists who consider the use of the word " heart" as erroneous have also banished the endearing term " sweetheart" from their vocabulary. I guess " sweetmind" is cute too.

So... it pleases me to consider God or entrust Him to will to have a relationship based on love with mankind.

AJ113 : I will assume that you did not see that post which attempted to reply to your specific questions. If you did and now claim that I did not answer your questions, I have to say that my answers are probably not what you want to hear. There is a difference between not replying to someone's post and attempting to reply giving answers which are not accepted as answers by the reciever. And I believe that is the case.

BadBadBad · 05-24-2003, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by K
Sabine Grant:

It sounds like we are using two different definitions of "predestination". I'm not particularly interested in what Calvinism has to say about predestination. My only point is that if God designed each of us knowing exactly how we would make each choice, then we are predestined to behave in exactly that manner. Maybe an example will make things more clear.

Let's say I write a program that will always choose the lower number when presented with two. I may not be involved with each decision the program makes, but because of my choices at design time, the program is predestined to always pick the smaller of two numbers.

If God designed us, knowing exactly what we would do in every situation we would ever be in, and followed through creating us using that design, then we have no more free will than the program described above. We and the program have been forced through the choices of our designers to behave the way we do.

You've made a very good point K. I claim the predestination means a single timeline into the future. You've addressed the dodge that the future isn't set in stone, but God still knows the outcome. I think predestination goes farther than your example. It says God knows every instance for every program that will lead to a choice, and he knows exactly what the specific options will be and he knows which all the programs will pick. That to me is a single timeline that can't be deviated from.

BadBadBad · 05-24-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113
That's rich. How many of my own questions have you answered in this thread?

Oops, thought you were talking to me.

NOGO · 05-24-2003, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Tarnaak
Here is an analogy for you all to show what free will is and how it works.
Post New Testament
You are in debt with a creditor. (Jesus for dying on the cross)
You have the free will to make payment or not (follow his example or not)
If you do follow, your debt will be paid in full (Rest in Heaven)
If you don't follow, your debt will always be in revolving account status. (No rest in a burning lake of fire)

Free will is defined by God, not Humans. What you may "think" of as free will is not the same as that of God the Almighty Creator of the Universe. We owe a debt to God for allowing us to live in what he created. Pay your respects, or face the music.

(hehe, cant wait for the reply to this )

In order to have a debt you must have borrowed something from somebody. I did not borrow anything from Jesus. In fact Paul keeps insisting that it was an underserved gift.

So where do you get the idea that this is a debt?

The rest of your statement does not hold any better than its premise. If God wanted me to believe in Christianity he would have made up a story that was credible. Christianity is simply not credible.

You are suggesting that if I do not believe in this ludicrous story of Jesus then I will burn in hell. I call that a small-minded threat!

That you want to reduce God to a small-minded threat as you do is unworthy of you and certainly unworthy of God.

No one can exercise a free choice under threats.
The idea that Christians will be saved because they "believed" is absurd beyond belief.

Tarnaak: Free will is defined by God, not Humans.

If free will is defined by God then it is not free; it is imposed.

SteveD · 05-24-2003, 09:09 AM

Sabine,
I don't understand this statement,

Quote:

To me predestination implies a direct interference from the divine who sets is place someone's destiny no matter what their choices may be.

The way I read this is that someone can actually make free will choices along the way but there ultimate destiny is sealed. Is that what you mean?

BTW I am working my way through the Westminster Confession of Faith as you suggested.

Steve

K · 05-24-2003, 09:45 AM

brettc:

Quote:

I think predestination goes farther than your example. It says God knows every instance for every program that will lead to a choice, and he knows exactly what the specific options will be and he knows which all the programs will pick.

That's a good point. When we write a program, we know how it will respond to inputs it is presented with. With an omniscient God, He would know how we would respond to every input and He would also know every input we would ever receive and when we would receive them.

K · 05-24-2003, 09:50 AM

Sabine Grant:

I think I might not be explaining my point.

If God knew exactly what you would do today when He designed you and He could have made you with a different design - one that would have behaved differently today - then you have no actual free will. You will behave today exactly the way God designed you to behave. The only way you could behave differently than you will is if God had chosen another design for you. That would make God the only one with free will.

AJ113 · 05-24-2003, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
AJ113 : I will assume that you did not see that post which attempted to reply to your specific questions. If you did and now claim that I did not answer your questions, I have to say that my answers are probably not what you want to hear. There is a difference between not replying to someone's post and attempting to reply giving answers which are not accepted as answers by the reciever. And I believe that is the case.

Well thanks for quoting yourself in your post just for little old me. I'm sure it is within your capabalities to notice that I have already quoted that post myself along with eight further questions, none of which you have answered.

There is a difference bewteen attempting to reply giving answers which are not accepted as answers by the receiver, and simply failing to answer at all.

Nowhere357 · 05-25-2003, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
Here is an analogy for you all to show what free will is and how it works.
Post New Testament
You are in debt with a creditor. (Jesus for dying on the cross)
You have the free will to make payment or not (follow his example or not)
If you do follow, your debt will be paid in full (Rest in Heaven)
If you don't follow, your debt will always be in revolving account status. (No rest in a burning lake of fire)

Free will is defined by God, not Humans.
What you may "think" of as free will is not the same as that of God the Almighty Creator of the Universe.
We owe a debt to God for allowing us to live in what he created.
Pay your respects, or face the music.

(hehe, cant wait for the reply to this:banghead: )

So we can't know what free will is, but you know what free will is. Pretty good argument.

Or maybe, free will is defined by the way we use the words, which can be found in the dictionary:

Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Quote:

You are in debt with a creditor. (Jesus for dying on the cross),
We owe a debt to God for allowing us to live in what he created.

These statements contradict. Which one, or is it both? Are there more debts, also? Is it possible that your source of information about this stuff is incoherent?

Quote:

Free will is defined by God, not Humans.
What you may "think" of as free will is not the same as that of God the Almighty Creator of the Universe.
You have the free will to make payment or not (follow his example or not)

The last statement contradicts the others. We can't know what free will is, only god can, and yet you say you know what it is! Wouldn't that make you god? Is it possible that your source of information about this stuff is incoherent?

Quote:

If you do follow, your debt will be paid in full (Rest in Heaven)

Follow what, now? The example of Jesus' dying on the cross? Is it possible that your source of information about this stuff is incoherent?

Quote:

If you do follow, your debt will be paid in full (Rest in Heaven)
If you don't follow, your debt will always be in revolving account status. (No rest in a burning lake of fire)
We owe a debt to God for allowing us to live in what he created.
Pay your respects, or face the music.

You have managed here to describe an evil, immoral god. The omniscient, omnipotent creator creates people and tortures them for eternity. Why would you worship such a thing? Is it possible that your source of information about this stuff is incoherent?

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05-24-2003, 09:50 AM	#68
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Sabine Grant: I think I might not be explaining my point. If God knew exactly what you would do today when He designed you and He could have made you with a different design - one that would have behaved differently today - then you have no actual free will. You will behave today exactly the way God designed you to behave. The only way you could behave differently than you will is if God had chosen another design for you. That would make God the only one with free will.

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