Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ex-xian · 07-17-2003, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesse
But Sagan didn't say you needed all the math to "get the philosophical gist", he said you needed it to "understand what quantum mechanics is about." I'd agree that to understand the essential core of why quantum mechanics is "weird" (in a more fundamental way than, say, general relativity), you just need to understand some basics like the double-slit experiment and the violation of Bell's theorem, but to understand the details of QM you do need the math.

I like this response to the math bit better than mine. Oh, to be as articulate as the II mods....

Majestyk · 07-17-2003, 05:39 PM

This thread started by giving me a feeling of elitism among scientists.

Now, I'm reminded of the scene from The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy where, the ship's captain is in the bath while, surrounded by media and marketing consultants.

ex-xian · 07-17-2003, 05:46 PM

Weren't there telephone hygenists and beauticians there too? Or, wait, they were still in cryogenic sleep weren't they?

Hey, wait a minute! I think I'm supposed insulted! i think?

Shadowy Man · 07-18-2003, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Majestyk
This thread started by giving me a feeling of elitism among scientists.

Do you still feel this way?

I think it is like anything where someone has put in years of training to gain expertise in something, then someone else comes along and after just reading a few books starts saying that he understands it as well as the other person and argues the finer points of the subject. This may tick off the expert and his response may appear to be elitist.

A bit of arm-chair quarterbacking, so to speak.

Majestyk · 07-18-2003, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
Do you still feel this way?

I think it is like anything where someone has put in years of training to gain expertise in something, then someone else comes along and after just reading a few books starts saying that he understands it as well as the other person and argues the finer points of the subject. This may tick off the expert and his response may appear to be elitist.

A bit of arm-chair quarterbacking, so to speak.

No. I don't feel that way at this point in the thread. And as it was a feeling, it had no logical basis. I was reacting to my perception that the underlying propositions of the initial statemts were that the layman could not attain any level of understanding of the concepts of advanced science without, anything less than a doctorate in that particular field. Therefore scientists should not attempt to popularize their studies nor should the layman attempt to understand them.

As stated in my initial response: "It is the layman's responsibility to maintain their own humility in level to their understanding." However, it is possible for a layman to have level of understanding of a concept without understanding the concept's underlying mechanics. However, the layman is dependant upon the expert, who understands the mechanics, for the that conceptual understanding.

So if, the sentiments expressed were that the layman is incapable of understanding even the most rudimentary aspects of a concpet then, yes that would be elitist.

The other side then appeared. The notion that a level of conceptual understanding could be achieved, without the knowledge of the mechanics, that would be equal to those individuals who have spent the majority of their existence attempting to understand the mechanics of a science thru disciplined and methodical research. (my HHGTTG reference was directed at that notion)

There is a vast and diverse demographic between the experts of a field and the illiterate. So I say to the scientists, do not deny the layman your efforts in compiling the mechanics into abstract concepts. I say to the layman, do not deny the scientists their accolades for the knowledge they have gained. (a little cheesey but I don't have time to refine it)

Shake · 07-21-2003, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fando
There is more.

A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope (1688-1744) - An Essay on Criticism

That is, a small amount of knowledge can cause people to think they are more expert than they are and consequently make flawed extrapolations. So not only do the popularizers of science have the difficulty of communicating concepts best described in an arcane language, they must be wary of how their information can be misinterpreted, as it so often is.

Excellent quote! This is why I'm primarily a lurker in this and some of the other upper fora. I feel most qualified to post in this forum (as opposed to other upper fora), but am aware of the limitations of my education.

But, I am not intimidated into not lurking these fora, because they can be used by laypeople like myself to further our education (or at least get pointed in the right direction, online or off).

Peter Soderqvist · 07-22-2003, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-xian
In light of this thread and this one, thought I'd post Carl Sagan's comments on quantum mechanics and its popularizations. Taken from The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark.

Quote:

Imagine you wanted to understand what quantum mechanics is about. There is a mathematical underpinning that you must first acquire, mastery of each mathematical subdiscipline leading you to the threshold of the next. In turn you must learn arithmetic, Euclidian geometry, high school algebra, differential and integral calculus, ordinary and partial differential equations, vector calculus, certain special functions of mathematical physics, matrix algebra, and group theory. For most physics students, this might occupy them from, say, third grade to early graduate school--roughly 15 years. Such a course of study does not actually involve learning any quantum mechanics, but merely establishing the mathematical framework required to approach it deeply.

The job of the popularizer of science, trying to get across some idea of quantum mechanics to a general audience that has not gone through these inituition rites, is daunting. Indeed, there are no successful popularizations of quantum mechanics in my opinion--party for this reason. These mathematical complexities are compounded by the fact that quantum mechanics is so resolutely counterintuitive. Common sense is almost useless in approaching it. It's no good, Richard Feynman once said, asking why it is that way. No one knows why it is that. That's just the way it is.

Soderqvist1: how can Carl Sagan really know what I and all other laymen have understood about quantum mechanics? Yet, Richard Feynman is the author of QED (Quantum Electro Dynamics) The Strange Theory of Light and Matter. QED by Richard Feynman is the most successful scientific theory ever; its predictive power is tremendous! This popular science book can be understood by laymen according to John Gribbin, the author of In Search of Schrodinger 's Cat: Quantum Physics and Reality, and Schrodinger 's Kittens and the Search for Reality! I recommend these three books about quantum physics!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...462240-0235337

John Gribbin 's home side!
http://www.biols.susx.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/

The Self-Aware Universe: How Consciousness Creates the Material World by Amit Goswami http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...462240-0235337

I also recommend; The fabric of Reality, by David Deutsch, for the sake of balance to Amit Goswami! Here is David Deutsch�s Home Page http://www.qubit.org/people/david/David.html

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07-17-2003, 05:39 PM	#22
Majestyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northeast Ohio Posts: 2,846	This thread started by giving me a feeling of elitism among scientists. Now, I'm reminded of the scene from The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy where, the ship's captain is in the bath while, surrounded by media and marketing consultants.

07-17-2003, 05:46 PM	#23
ex-xian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: :noitacoL Posts: 4,679	Weren't there telephone hygenists and beauticians there too? Or, wait, they were still in cryogenic sleep weren't they? Hey, wait a minute! I think I'm supposed insulted! i think?

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