Secular Elation

I just don't find myself able to agree. Having your hand burn horribly is, indeed, an awful thing - but it's not *punishment* that this happens if you stick your hand in an open flame.

Of course, because no conscience was behind enforcing the pain.

I don't happen to think that "disbelief", in the sense that most people experience it, is enough to qualify you for hell. It's active rejection, and it's very hard to reject something you don't know or understand.

Are you implying that I misunderstand Christianity? Well, that's another subject, but I think my reasons for rejecting this belief are sound.

I still say, either way, it's not *punishment*. Punishment is something designed to add a penalty to something to keep you from doing it, because otherwise you would. Logically-inevitable consequences can't be considered "punishment".

The threat of hell is supposed to keep me believing in him, is it not?

Mageth

This dictionary definition of "god" sounds pretty good:

"a spirit or being believed to control some part of the universe or life and often [but not necessarily] worshipped for doing so."

I extend my atheism to lack belief in anything "supernatural."

Anunnaki

seebs:
You lost me already. What are you getting at and what does this have to do with God punishing unbelievers in Hell?
Many of us here have studied the Judeo-Christian god from every possible angle and have found it to be nothing more than mythology.
Are you implying that although some of us have spent countless hours exploring the subject,we are still ignorant due to reaching a different conclusion than you?
I really don`t know where you`re going with this.

So worrying about punishment is immoral? What about thinking about it rationally and coming to the conclusion that the very idea of Hell itself is just make believe? This must be very immoral huh?

I`m just curious to know where you`re coming from. You`ve made a lot of posts in a very short time and are quick to come to Christianities defense when it`s being attacked here. But when you are cornered and asked about specifics you often change the subject,go off on some long winded tangent or simply say "I dunno".

You`ve also said that you can`t really find anything even slighty distastful about Christianity. What about the disgusting image of Jesus on the cross? Do you find this to be appealing and in good taste?

Well I love cats too,but I think Christianity is nothing more than mistaken mythology. It has no chance of ever bringing my even 1% of the joy that cats do.
I think that it might make you feel good to think that you`ve found something that answers lifes unknown questions or that you have this comfy god umbrella over your head making it seem like you`re not alone. Christianity does offer a complete worldview thats easy to live by although most of it goes against everything we`ve learned about the world around us.

I look forward to reading your thread.

seebs

Hmm. As someone who believes that physics is a result of God's active and continuing will, I have to disagree.

If I have understood your posts correctly, I agree; the belief you appear to be rejecting is one I reject, too.

No.

I just never parsed it this way, and I find the Christians who think of it that way sort of scary.

seebs

Does God "punish" people who don't learn with ignorance? No! Ignorance is what happens if you don't learn. God doesn't "punish" people with Hell; people are able, however, to choose to go there.

Let's look at a nice concrete example: Hate. Hate is a "sin", and by no small coincidence, people who are hateful are generally miserable.

Is God *punishing* them? No. They are experiencing the inherent quality of their decision about how to interact with the world. If they stop hating, they will stop being nearly so miserable.

No punishment, just physics. (Or the moral equivalent thereof.)

Sorry, that was an exceptionally bad analogy; I meant it solely as an analogy, obviously, it would be foolish to call atheists as a group "ignorant" of Christian doctrine. I was merely pointing at another example of a negative outcome from action, and showing how it doesn't look like "punishment" to me.

I don't think so. I think you may be wrong on a matter of fact, but if the end result is that you will do what you think is right, rather than spending all your time worrying about whether or not to do the right thing, in case the thing you think is right will get you punished... then I think you're probably doing what you're supposed to do.

I think God is a lot more forgiving of sincere, honest, mistakes made by people who are genuinely seeking truth and righteousness, and a lot less forgiving of willful blindness. I think a lot of punishment-avoidance behavior is essentially blindness to moral issues.

As an example, consider when Jesus healed on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees derided Him for it. His point was that you have to use some common sense, and do the best, most compassionate, thing, even if it appears to go against the letter of the law.

A lot of the time, that may be because some questions don't really make *sense* given the premises. It's like when someone says "Why do you throw out any data which won't support evolution?". In fact, no one is doing any such thing, so there's no way to say "why".

And yes, I often don't know.

Appealing? No. "Good taste"? I don't think questions of taste apply to matters of reality. If I may borrow a phrase from someone else, "A statement of fact cannot be insolent." I don't think it's meaningful to discuss that as a question of "taste".

I don't remember the context in which I apparently said that I don't think there's anything distasteful about Christianity. I will freely admit that many branches of the various churches have done things I find repugnant.

I would call Christianity *VERY* hard to live by. It's easy if you treat it as a Big List moral system; just avoid doing all the bad things, and you're okay. It's basically impossible (which is arguably the point) if you try to remember to love everyone, even your enemies, and let the details sort themselves out.

I don't see how it goes against anything I've ever learned about the world around me. Christianity taught me that people are important, and that making them suffer is generally a bad thing. This coincides perfectly with my observations of the world.

Secular Elation

seebs,

We are bouncing all over the place in arguing over if Hell is punishment or not.

Let me waiver the point; let us assume Hell isn't punishment.

All right. But why should this still be acceptable? If I disbelieve in god and reject his religion, I will no doubtedly be condemned to Hell. Why should he allow something so morbid to someone simply because they had reason enough to reject the belief? Why can't he just say, "Ok, you don't believe in me, you don't have to," and refrain from imposing such unfortunate consequences?

Christians have always proclaimed that god loves everyone. Hmm, I guess he also loves those that he sends to Hell? Please.