Brian63

Brad,

Thanks for your much earlier post about Arminian and Calvinian schools of thought. I'm pretty much a rookie in all of this theology and philosophy debate, and I do appreciate it when someone is able to clear up some some misunderstandings that I have.

Brian

IvanK

If the doctor said, "I want you to be one," and then cut us in two, yes, he would be.

Now, how about this "spirit of love" and "being one" thing one doesn't need the Bible to figure out? If one doesn't need the Bible, then why does one need Jesus?

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]

Y'know what ticks me off? Some ranter posts here with some ridiculous question like "why should love scare you," we get into the semblance of a serious discussion about Christian doctrine, some other pious sunnuvabitch goes off on how you don't need the Bible or grace or Hell or some other such sanctified mistake or holy lie to be "saved," one of us posts a reply -- consciously leaving a hole big enough to drive a truck through for the Christian good-cop to witness to us about how wonderful Jesus is -- and then the thread just goes dead. Nothing for days on end. Are they thinking about it do you imagine, or have they just decided "well, shit, here's some people who can argue rings around us, no use wasting our time looking for empty-headed converts here." Then a couple days later there's a new OP about how we poor freethinkers just need to lighten up on the whole incoherence thing and let Jeezuz into our hearts so we can be saved. C'mon, ManM or whatever name you're trolling under now, give it your best shot. Two days and counting . . .

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]</p>

JL

Sorry for the slow response bltl6, you last wrote:

Hmmm... that sounds an awful lot like what they might say about Christians.

Then of what use is such a label except to distinguish and empower oneself amongst fellow believers? Which, by the way, seems entirely unChristian. It's no longer enough to be a plain old Christian, it's time to up the ante.

So they tortured and killed witches out of a lust for power? I don't get what you're saying.

Actually it was an increasing awareness of a lack of evidence together with the eventual realization that Christianity is structured in such a way so that it would still grow and prosper even if what it claimed weren't true. But what you asked is sort of symptomatic I guess of why I'm actively opposing your religion.

bltl6

You're right that the highjackers would say that I worship the wrong god. I don't know what your point is though. You would say that I believe the wrong thing too. They would say you believe the wrong thing. Are we all wrong? Are we all right? Is one of us right?

My point with the Catholic Church's past (and present) is that I believe that men did get involved in the Church for many reasons other than the fact that they wanted to serve God. They had power trips; they liked being able to be alone with young children with little to no accountablility, etc. Some, I'm sure, started with good motives, but sin crept in and a series of choices that led them to do those horrible things. Still, others so believed in the word of the Pope and Church that they would do whatever they said thinking it was right and from God.

Of course, I would be a fool to say that this doesn't happen in Protastant churches. One thing that differes is the fact that there is no Pope or supream authority of the church. A lot of Protastant churches act with an independant government: EV Free, Christian, EV Covenant, etc.

I'm not saying that a particular denomination is best, or that Protastant is better than Chatholic, these all hold the theme I have spoken of--Rom. 10:9-10.

My point is that, while I can't judge the hearts of others, the bible talks about fales teachers and there is therfore no doubt in my mind that some of the people out there claiming to be Christian aren't. I was trying to say that it's very possible that some of these horrible sins committed in the name of God might have been committed by non-Christians who claimed to be one.

I call myself a Christian because I can judge my own heart, and I believe that I am a Christian. I like to be around others like-minded for encouragement and accouncability, so i'm glad that others say they are Christians too. Christians believe in the saving truth of Jesus and want to tell others about him so that others will come to know Him on a personal level. If we are supossed to just shut up about our faith and who we are as Christians, we deni (spelling?) ourselves and stop spredding the message and truth of Jesus.

JL

My mention of the similarity of Muslim accusations against Christians was an allusion to the observation (not an argument really) that in proclaiming your god as the one True God, that all others are false gods, it creates a bit of a problem when there are and have been a whole host of religions whose gods say the same things. Who to believe? They are all on equal footing, and they all say theirs is the true god to the exclusion of all others.

There is a great deal of wisdom in the Bible, I'm not trying to demonize it. But there is a great deal of foolishness in it too. It is the power that religion can have over peoples minds to do things that fly in the face of reason and sanity that calling oneself a True Christian brings to mind. That others must be persuaded to believe in the strength and purity of ones convictions to me immediately leaves their motivations suspect.

Ok, I'll concede that point, but how is it that people came to be such followers that they carried out the will of these evil men? The burden of guilt does not rest soley upon these individuals.

IvanK

Because no True Christian could ever commit such a horrible sin, right?

Debbie T

Almost every time I go to forums where Christians are I hear Christians denouncing Christians. "They weren't really Christians, They didn't have enough faith, etc."

It would be nice for once that instead of denying what is going on, Christians started standing up and taking responsibility for what Christians do. Coverups about abuse is a problem in churches of all denominations. I am glad this is all coming out now. I have worked trying to get the word out about this abuse in churches. I am most often met with denial that it doesn't happen in their church. I point out the many incidences in other churches and met with "Those churches are not really Christian", or slams against me personally. I am to the point that if children are abused by leaders in the church because the church is negligent in screening, or a child is molested by a person who was let go by another church for the same reason these churches should be held accountable and I think they should have their damn pants sued off them. Sued to the point they have to shut down.

There is also problems with missionaries going to other countries. There are many missionaires who are pedophiles.

Quit blaming the problem on others. The buck stops with you and your church. Denial gives pedophilias a field to play in. It has nothing to do with gays, bad parenting, Christian or non. Its everyone's problem and that means it is yours. Quit making your damn excuses.

bltl6

No. That's not what i'm saying. I said it's "possable" that "some" of the men were non-Christians.

"True Christians" sin. The disciple Peter rejected knowing Christ when Jesus was being crucified. (You know the story.) Jesus predicted this and said the rooster would crow on the third time.

My point is that here we have an individual who followed Jesus, is credited with writting two books of the Bible, and who Jesus said he would build his church with; yet, he denied Christ.

I should clarify that when I say "true Christian", I'm not saying that the true Christians have to believe one way and go to one church and so on. Like I said, the thing that makes a true Christian true is the heart and mind belief that Jesus is God.

IvanK

1. Is it more or less possible that a True Christian (TM) would commit a heinous crime out of religious conviction or that a non-Christian would claim to be a Christian in order to do so under the cover of religion?

2. What does it matter to me or anyone whether or not someone has or later acquires a "heart and mind belief that Jesus is God" if that person commits heinous crimes, for whatever reason?

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]</p>

Bree

I don't remember Peter ever collaborating with Jesus on this topic.

IIRC, Peter said "upon this rock I will build my church" - not his and Jesus' church, not God's church - his church.

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]</p>