Ronin

IL ~ I, for one, do not assert atheism, and this is important to your issue...I directly refute the assertions of anyone promoting tribal myths as reality.

Keeping that in mind, I would be happy to live quietly within my humanistic goals (as others should within their own) ~ until someone promotes a supernatural claim or irrational dogma.

The invitation to address these claims is then actively accepted.

It really is as simple as that.

As for what occurs during the assorted exchanges found here at the IIDB (and life in general for that matter), it really would be more honest to examine each on a case by case basis and realize how the offerings may have evolved into any perceived mockery or insults...from any view.

For me ~ I am not obligated to hold any respect for any view which holds none for me...despite any candy coating the purveyor of that view may dip it in.

~ Steve

Sabine Grant

Mais bonjour Steve... refuting the myths is understandable.. however demeaning the character of the myth believing individual is what IMO Infinity Lover is questionning.

I live happy with my own goals until someone tries to convince me that my goals are a lesser enterprise than theirs. No competition here.... common productivity is more effective.

Addressing the claims is not IMO what Infinity Lover is questioning....

From what I have personaly observed in IIDB, there is a difference in the way people of different thoughts express themselves behind a computer and face to face. If it is easy to be offensive via words when we can at any time disappear from a thread...click of the mouse... it is a different ball game as one would allow himself to be cynical, sarcastic while having eye contact. The freethinkers I encounter in real life tend to challenge arguments presented by me in a way that is not demeaning to my character. Thinking back of Amie's thread where she in her OP attempted to appreciate the individuality of various participants, I doubt that some of the same participants would have allowed themselves to be as cynical and negative had they been face to face with her.

What you call " candy coating" is what I call moderation in the way a person chooses to express himself. In any case, if one seeks to be productive in a dialogue and influence the thoughts of another individual, methods using sticks and stones are never productive.

There is a vast difference between a freethinker who will trigger in a theist the will to revise his thoughts and the freethinker who wants to ridicule not only the thoughts but also the person.... the vast difference is made via the methods of expression , that choice to question the thoughts while still validating the person.

I always quote Buffman as an example of a freethinker who uses his intelligence to trigger, entice a new thought process in a theist.

The respect is about not demeaning the character of anyone. That is where respect applies. It is also attempting to still appreciate a person no matter how much we may despise his thoughts.

beyelzu

I do asser that there is no god and then I refute those fairy tale assetions made by others

Quote:

Keeping that in mind, I would be happy to live quietly within my humanistic goals (as others should within their own) ~ until someone promotes a supernatural claim or irrational dogma.

I would like to point out that supernatural claims and irrational dogma is promoted all of the time.

Quote:

For me ~ I am not obligated to hold any respect for any view which holds none for me...despite any candy coating the purveyor of that view may dip it in. ~ Steve

And here is the part that I really agree with, most xians seem to believe that I am going to suffer eternal damnation for my beliefs but I am not supposed to be disrespectful of that. I think they are wrong sure, but I dont think that I generally attack them personally.

I also would like to point out that xianity has canons rules, a holy book, these things have led various people throughout the ages to do lots of fucked up shit. Pointing this out isnt emotional blackmail. Its showing whats wrong with having a holy book in the first place.

beyelzu

I remember the post made by amie where she did try to appreciate everyone's individuality, I wonder if some of the flames directed at her would have still been done if she was an atheist. I wonder about how I respond to xians in general as well. I try to be polite to the individual even when I find their beliefs ludicrous. I also think that its possible to see more about a person's character and not like it. I also genuinely like amie, she seems to be a kind, caring person. I guess much you sabine and ronin too. I myself am only a kind and caring person to people I know, it can be online, but it takes time for me.

I think that its very easy to be defensive with some of the xians out there, I just cant bring myself to be nice to religious rights.

Mad Kally

I wish you could see me when a JW is walking toward me with a Watch Tower in his/her hand. Thinking back to Amie's thread I don't think I even said anthing in it. Actually I thought it was cute and that she was trying to be nice to us, I have a feeling if we met in real life, we would probably be friends, as there is no need to talk about religion constantly. There are so many things about life and the world in general to talk about it would seem never ending. Why would people meet in real life and then jump in each others faces over a religion or belief? (except JW's or mom lol) Internet BB's are set up for these types of discussions. Oh I checked and I made a joke about the pope because the protestants who raised me say that Catholics aren't even Christians! THey know nothing about other denominations and don't want to know.

Infinfity Lover, it's obvious you love Amie, However, she seems strong enough to me to do her own arguing and speaking. That's none of my business if you feel this is necessary.

The not Mad Kally

Sabine Grant

There is nothing pertinent in the gratuitous cynical and sarcastic demeaning comments Amie recieved in her thread " What I have learned in IIDF". There were no theological attempts on her part. No expression of her beliefs. It was pure nasty bashing of her sweet intent. And I suspect that if a freethinker had been the author of a similar thread, it would have been greeted with cheers rather than discriminatory jeers. It is only because Amie is a theist that she recieved such treatment. It was a pathetic display of a prejudicial narrow minded mentality exhibited by a few freethinkers who dare to claim to be humanists.

It is important Gurdur that you as well as other freethinkers realize that humanistic claims might get challenged in this forum if the attitudes and mentality of a few freethinkers point to discrimination and prejudice. However, note that I do not generalize those attitudes to all freethinkers. It is obvious to me that it is a minority of folks who exhibit such immaturity and narrow mindedness.

I commend Infinity lover for having the honesty to question methods of expression used by some of " his own kind". Trying to play the argument of his relationship with Amie is IMO pretty low. The fact he can have a constructive relationship with a theist tells me that the man is not restricted or limited by his convictions in the way he will interact with other individuals. You have to expect that he has better knowledge of the character of Amie than anyone else has in this forum. You have to expect that he will react to gratuitous bashing of her character. He has knowledge of her qualities that you do not have. And it is quite remarkable that a freethinker set aside his convictions as he discovered in his relationship with Amie that she is a fine, lovable, sweet individual who deserves VALIDATION. I guess he is not plagued by the insecurity some freethinkers demonstrate here as they segregate, demean, distance themselves from the possibility of finding a theist likeable.

Sabine Grant

Beyelzu... both Amie and myself were very appreciative of the apology you gave in another thread. You definitly set an example as someone who tries to appreciate people.

Sabine Grant

Hi Kally... I am not particularly my" sweet myself" if anyone who is on an evangelical hunt comes to my door. Whether it be JWs, Mormons or Baptists. But my lack of sociable manners then is from a different angle than yours... I am irritated with the belief that because I am a christian I am to belong to any church doctrine. Did you ever read the post where I related a true incident that happened at one of my patients homes? I will repeat it just for the fun of it.... as 2 JWs were marching to the door, the pest control guy showed up ! his truck read " Grace Pest Control, Plant City Fl.". I truly felt graced by that deterrent.

I think Infinity lover is questionning attitudes in general and of course Amie happened to have been quite a target in that thread.
And Amie is not the only target of opportunities Kally.

I would love to meet you by the way...your sense of humour must make your company very enjoyable. Plus I could use some good advices from an hospice nurse. Stuff about how you deal with a feeling of helplessness when you cannot relieve a patient from his emotional pain... you know..the physical is pretty much dealt with with meds. The mental and emotional are quite different. Sorry off topic....

Mad Kally

I would love to meet and talk to you about hospice too. When I used to go to the chatroom there weren't any other medical people there and if I talked about my job, they would say I'm depressing and gross. It would be nice to talk to someone who knows.

I do make my patients and families laugh quite a bit. It's so therapeutic. We laugh together and cry together. It's hard to explain how hard it is to cope.

I know, and I'm guilty of that.

livius drusus

Sabine -

As one of the people who was not at all charmed by Amie's post and said so, I would like to state yet again for the record that I did not flame her in any way. I specifically assumed for the sake of argument that her intent was nothing but sweetness incarnate, but that nonetheless, the reality of life is that some people are not going to react positively to that kind of sentimentality. The subsequent events on that thread proved me rather remarkably correct. Her theism was entirely irrelevant to my opinion, as was made obvious by my later dealings with one of the sentimental atheists on that same thread.

I would most certainly have said what I said to her face and I can assure you that after spending 5 mintues in my company, neither she nor you would have any problem with the starkness of my assessments. I have excellent table manners and can converse intelligently on all manner of things in three languages. Truth be told, I'd charm the pants off the lot of you within an hour, and that includes Gurdur. Well, actually, Gurdur's probably scrambling out his trousers even as he reads this.

But that doesn't mean that I don't say what's on my mind and it doesn't mean that just because I don't use bubble letters and Hello Kitty stickers that I am being cruel or unkind or demeaning. What you call cynicism I call realism and frankly, considering how often we all indulge in social phoniness as a bypass of real communication, you should find the rare moment of unvarnished honesty refreshing instead of imputing questionable motivations to its purveyor.