Shadowy Man

So, to what extent is something "real" if the degree to which it can affect you depends on how much you believe in it?

Remember what Philip K. Dick said:

Ojuice5001

Shadowy Man,

The government is real. The more you know and think about the government, the more it can affect you (other things equal). But the government can almost always affect you to some degree. All this is true of supernaturalism too (assuming supernaturalism is true).

Shadowy Man

I guess you are working with a different definition of "affect".

Anyway, if I stop believing in the government, that won't stop it from affecting me. If I don't pay taxes, because I don't believe there is a government to which I need to pay taxes, I'm pretty sure that something would happen to me.
I tend to believe in those things that do affect me. Since I have never had an experience that has necessitated a supernatural explanation, I find it hard to believe in the supernatural.

Autonemesis

OK, but that's still no reason for me to do the same.

never been there

We are part of the Universe, we are made of the same "stuff" as the furthest galaxies. In the workings of our cells, we are overwhelmingly more like other living things than different. If you look a dog in the eyes, you experience another being's emotional and experiential life. The clouds, winds, snow, rain, rivers all are made by the same physics as our bodies. There was only one Big Bang, at least as far as matters to us.

How could naturalistic materialism lead to less sense of connectedness than any other world view? All religions take as their basis a distinction between humans, the non-human existence "beneath" them, and the superhuman "above" them. Materialism emphasises that all distinctions are inherently subjective.

The unchurched who are so disconnected from the rest of the Universe are not true atheists, they're more like believers in 12-step recovery, and tend to a weak New-Agey spirituality while smart enough not to get taken in by the crystal vendors.

-RRH-

I would say, Juice, that you would need to better define what you mean by connectedness before I can say whether or not I've got it.

Also, what of the buddhist view that attachment leads to suffering? Would this be akin to saying that connectedness can be bad, under some circumstances?

Also, among my own friends, those most likely to forward e-mail chainletters to everyone else are also those who are most overtly religious. (This example came to me because I received two just today. A muslim sent me one about Jamie Bulger's killers, and a wiccan sent me one about bonsai kittens.) Meanwhile, my atheist friends are the ones who can distance themselves enough to be skeptical, and say, "Hey. An email petition signed by Canadians probably won't have a huge impact on U.K. legal rulings made more than a year in the past," or "This Bonsai Kittens website sounds like a big hoax." Perhaps this ability to disconnect ourselves in order to better see the truth is a gift granted to atheists by Atheor.

Of course, until I better understand what you mean by connectedness, I can't be sure whether any of this is relevant.

excreationist

I think people in general seek connectedness - in different ways and to different degrees. I think this is what motivates people to understand and make sense of things - to find patterns in things. I think it makes people want to like environmentalism, or intimacy, or approval, etc. Though it is more complex than that.
If people don't feel enough connectedness with their world, their world seems fragmented - they feel alienated. Life can seem meaningless and empty.

Anyway, in religions, things are set out quite plainly. There are reasons for things happening, and people can have a relationship with the one responsible for those things (the creator-god). Or in Buddhism, there is no creator-god, but people can instead feel a direct connection with everything by rejecting the idea of separation - or embracing nothingness - something like that.

Other beliefs can help provide a sense of large-scale connectedness - e.g. that stars play a role in our lives (astrology).

Hardcore materialists (that includes me I guess) would believe that the large-scale patterns throughout our universe that exist are things like physics and evolution - but they don't have that much relevance to our minute to minute experiences... compared to philosophies like one where someone might be a humanist and have a lot of respect for humans in general.

Anyway, I think the connectedness things we crave include a need to have a wide-reaching philosophy about the world - that makes us feel like an important part within the world we experience... e.g. even if our lives are insignificant on the scale of the universe, from our own point of view they can be. We can define our lives as being important. That's existentialism I think - creating our own meaning (connections between things) in our lives.

There were probably a lot of problems in that post... I can clarify things if people have any problems with it.

excreationist

BTW, John Cleese and Robin Skynner's book was very influential in my ideas about connectedness.

Basically they think that mentally healthy people feel "connected" with the world - in other words, they feel like they belong.

I think a craving for "connectedness" can be quite useful - I think it motivates toddlers to ask lots of questions - because they want to fill in the gaps. It is about order and routine. The status quo - harmony and stability. On the other hand, we also have a craving for newness, to varying degrees, so we like to have new experiences every now and then (or very often). And it causes us to explore the world and make discoveries, etc.

At first I was stumped... but now here is my answer... as I was saying, I think we crave connectedness... e.g. wanting to possess things, etc, but it isn't necessarily the best thing to blindly seek to satisfy this craving. e.g. it could lead to feelings of loss, etc. As far as Buddhism goes, I think they are still seeking connectedness - connectedness to nothingness (I think) and connectedness to the "absolute Truth" about things (enlightenment).

Eudaimonist

Since "connectedness" seems to be a broad concept, and since I personally don't particularly need or value a sense of connectedness to nonliving matter (the Universe), even though I feel this from time to time when I look at the night sky or read a science article, I'll list a few human ways in which I value connection. This will be a good exercise.
[list=1][*]I seek heroic engagement with life. This is connection to the world through action (not passively, as in quiet contemplation). Engagement with life may be contrasted with any effort to hide from life, physically, mentally, or emotionally[*]I seek to be connected to my future by defining my long-term goals (my chosen destiny) and by pursuing these goals[*]I seek to be connected to my present by living consciously, meaning: "to seek to be aware of everything that bears on our actions, purposes, and goals -- to the best of our ability, whatever that ability may be -- and to behave in accordance with that which we see and know." [Six Pillars of Self-Esteem, Branden][*]I seek to be connected to the past by facing up to and owning memories, even when they are painful ones[*]I seek to be connected to other human beings in harmonious ways through friendship and benevolence[/list=1]

This is a different style of connectedness from the Eastern or pantheistic varieties, but this is what I like. YMMV.