Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Zentraedi · 11-13-2002, 12:28 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawkingfan:
[QB]

An atheist's "morality" is not dependant on anything but nature. There are no doctrines stating what a gorillas morals should be like. But you don't see them running around in chaos. There is one thing you don't seem to understand about the mind of atheists--the concepts of "goodness" and "evil" and "morals" do not exist. Our behavior is controlled by our own instincts and is fashioned by how others may react to it.

Zentraedi:You are talking out your ass. The paragraph you wrote is contradicting itself. You state an atheist has "morality" and then state the concepts of an atheists mind like "morals" do not exist. Again, speak for yourself. I could be considered somewhat of an atheist, and I am disageeing with you.

Behavior is absolutely not controlled by instincts. Instincts are only fashioned by genes, not by others.

Zentraedi · 11-13-2002, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan:


That is where we must agree to disagree. Atheists generally like how animals act.

Again speak for yourself. Not many people go around raping, stealing, and killing as animals do.

Hawkingfan · 11-13-2002, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zentraedi:
Zentraedi: I think your full of shit

Really, and what exactly should I be shaking in my boots about?

Everybody is concerned about purpose. Not just christians. But you are wrong when you say "rather than where they are going". Ever been witnessed to? They won't shut up about it. Atheists do not have a "fear" about being meaningful. We just do it. If it's meaningful, it's meaningful. If it's not, then it's not.

Zentraedi: Speak for yourself. The rest of what you said is conjecture.

Whatever.

Zentraedi:Is Atheism productive?

I have led a productive life so far, yes.

Zentraedi:I mean as a whole isolated by itself from others beliefs.

SO WHAT?

Zentraedi: So get a clue. You didn't answer the question. I said atheism, not mr.atheist(hawkingfan).

OK, yes. Atheists are productive! We hold jobs. We hold public offices. We teach. We can build things.

Zentraedi:My belief is that no man/woman can function without some sort reassurance from a foreign intelligence, be it imaginary or not.

I have yet to lose any of my "functions".

Zentraedi: Foreign I mean as anyone other than yourself.

That's nice. But your belief is still incorrect.

Zentraedi: How so? Oh thats right you don't need anyone or anything. You are curious about nothing, and you have no fear. Go ahead and live in your imaginary world.

Its part of human nature to rely upon others.

--For an adult, no it isn't. Not all the time. When I do, it's certainly not on God.

Example:
Have you seen Tom Hanks in 'Cast Away'. What did he do when he was alone? He created a friend out of thin air. A vollyball named wilson.

"Cast Away" was not real. Just because the movie portrayed that doesn't mean everyone would behave that way.

Zentraedi:What does an atheist do when the reassurance is not present in a physical manner?

I don't know. Turn to reason? Logic? Get over it?

Zentraedi: How are you going to tell yourself everything is going to be ok, when you don't think your going to be. You may not put faith in god, but you DO put faith in other human beings. Many times in your life its no one but you, and faith is needed in someone other than yourself. Reason will get you no where when its telling you you've lost.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I don't tell myself "Everything is going to be ok!!!" I am not "positive" or "negative" about the way that I look at the world. I am realistic! I put my faith in MYSELF. Faith is not needed in anything else. Reason has gotten me where I am today. It's going to serve me MUCH better than praying to a big man who lives in the clouds (who really isn't even there!) or fooling myself with other superstitions when I'm "lost".

Zentraedi:When you live in a society, you put faith in countless others. Did you do every scientific experiment that you believe in? Did you go to every location in the world that is said to exist? Do you put faith in yourself if you are intoxicated? I could go on and on about how much faith you have in others. Live in your imaginary security blanket. You are the one not being realistic. Oh, and without making choices ("positives" and "negatives"), you could not come up with a single conclusion on your own beliefs.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: Zentraedi ][/QB]

I don't understand what your points have to do with being an atheist.
I am being perfectly realistic. I think you misunderstood me when I said "positive" and "negative". I did not mean it in the context of making choices, but how I view things that have happened to me. I mean to say that if something happened like say, an earthquake, I'm not going to get on my knees and say, "Oh my God, an earthquake!!! Let me pray!! Who's to blame for this God?! Gays?! What did I do to deserve this?!! Someone, help me, please!!! This is bad!! So bad!! I don't think I can handle it!!" Instead I would say, "There is an earthquake going on. Hide under the table." I know this because I've done it.

Hawkingfan · 11-13-2002, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zentraedi:

Again speak for yourself. Not many people go around raping, stealing, and killing as animals do.

A lot of people go around raping, stealing, and killing. Many of them Christians.

Hawkingfan · 11-13-2002, 12:49 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Zentraedi:

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan:
[QB]

An atheist's "morality" is not dependant on anything but nature. There are no doctrines stating what a gorillas morals should be like. But you don't see them running around in chaos. There is one thing you don't seem to understand about the mind of atheists--the concepts of "goodness" and "evil" and "morals" do not exist. Our behavior is controlled by our own instincts and is fashioned by how others may react to it.

Zentraedi:You are talking out your ass. The paragraph you wrote is contradicting itself. You state an atheist has "morality" and then state the concepts of an atheists mind like "morals" do not exist. Again, speak for yourself. I could be considered somewhat of an atheist, and I am disageeing with you.

--It is not contradicting. That is why I used quotes. "Morality" and "morals" are subjective. So what if you're an atheist and disagree with me?
What does "somewhat of an atheist" mean?

Behavior is absolutely not controlled by instincts. Instincts are only fashioned by genes, not by others.

But is behavior controlled by genes?

Zentraedi · 11-13-2002, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan:


But is behavior controlled by genes?

So what?

xeren · 11-13-2002, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zentraedi:

Why would I have to prove a christians morals came from god, just to prove you patterned your morals from christians?

If you don't prove that Christians got there morals came from god, then, obviously they received them from SOCIETY.

Quote:

If christian morals did not come from god, you can still pattern morals from christians.

Like i said, maybe our morals ARE patterned after chrisitans, but if Christians got them from society, and NOT god, then by the transitive property, we received them from society.

So, show us that Christian morals came from God.

One more time, finish the sentence(just follow me on this, and see where it leads, please)

God dissaproves of rape because...

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]

Zentraedi · 11-13-2002, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan:


A lot of people go around raping, stealing, and killing. Many of them Christians.

So what? Does this help your arguement? I think not.

Hawkingfan · 11-13-2002, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zentraedi:
So what? Does this help your arguement? I think not.

I think it helps my point very well. To me, there is no difference between the way apes live and the way humans live (even the Christians). We are all apart of nature. We do what comes natural.

Hawkingfan · 11-13-2002, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zentraedi:
So what?

You said behavior is not influenced by instincts. And instincts come from genes. But you did not mention how behavior fits into the second statement.

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11-13-2002, 12:28 PM	#111
Zentraedi Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Anytown, USA Posts: 103	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawkingfan: [QB] An atheist's "morality" is not dependant on anything but nature. There are no doctrines stating what a gorillas morals should be like. But you don't see them running around in chaos. There is one thing you don't seem to understand about the mind of atheists--the concepts of "goodness" and "evil" and "morals" do not exist. Our behavior is controlled by our own instincts and is fashioned by how others may react to it. Zentraedi:You are talking out your ass. The paragraph you wrote is contradicting itself. You state an atheist has "morality" and then state the concepts of an atheists mind like "morals" do not exist. Again, speak for yourself. I could be considered somewhat of an atheist, and I am disageeing with you. Behavior is absolutely not controlled by instincts. Instincts are only fashioned by genes, not by others.

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