Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amazon · 10-31-2002, 11:03 AM

Hello, Zentraedi.
Please allow me to address your post.

Quote:

Originally posted by Zentraedi:
Atheistic dependence

He/she who claims to be an atheist can not claim to be raised in a society full of atheist.

Not sure what this means. I was raised in the United States by Christian parents, so I certainly was not raised in a society of atheists. Could you clarify what you mean by this sentence?

Can beliefs in atheism hold its own?

Atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of belief. If there is no proof to back up a positive claim (such as "there is a god"), then there is no reason to hold that claim to be true. Therefore, of course atheism can "hold its own" until or unless actual proof presents itself.

Can a man war-torn, on the brink of death, reaching his hand out toward help for days-on-end come up with a theory of godlessness that will settle his fears?

First of all, unless proof of a god somehow becomes available, I see no reason why a war-torn man would all of the sudden believe in a god. Secondly, why would horrible circumstances where a man was calling out for help and not receiving any cause him to believe in a god? Isn't that MORE proof that no gods exist? Thirdly, a person who is strong enough not to hide behind god superstitions probably doesn't need his fears settled by fairy tales. He would simply want help. REAL help, From a human.

Is Atheism productive?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. But if you're asking if atheism, or non-reliance on unproven entities, could improve life, then I respond, yes. Humans willingly seizing the moment, not being deluded or bullied by self-professed priests, and taking full responsibility for their actions and decisions would definitely improve society.

My belief is that no man/woman can function without some sort reassurance from a foreign intelligence, be it imaginary or not. What does an atheist do when the reassurance is not present in a physical manner?

I agree that reassurance is ideal, although I clearly only rely on reassurance from sources that I can verify by my senses. I can't answer your question about what I would do in the absence of all reassurance. I have been very lucky to be surrounded by loving family and friends my whole life.

How would the rules of society work, based on an atheist point of view? Do you like the way your society works at the moment? Would you want change in the manner of your beliefs? Another words do you practice what you preach?

This is a huge set of questions. So I'm not going to get into any detail. I think these questions may overlap with politics a bit. I think that positive changes could be made if a society as a whole embraced the realization that this life is all we have, this planet is all we have, and we only have each other to lean on. How that might affect government, I'm not sure.

Religion digs deep into your logic. How would your morals work in a non-religious society? You�d probably base them off the ones you already know of. (Formally religious-based ones) What if you did not have a �control� morality to start with in your experiment?

I disagree with what I think is your assumption that morals were dictated by religion. I think that societal norms and accepted behaviors were established and continue to evolve based on the good or harm each action/behavior does to others. One does not need religion to know that stealing is bad. One does not need religion to know that harming others without provocation is bad. I think religion came after morality, and decided to add a couple arbitrary rules to keep people submissive to religious rulers.

A village may be able to run on an atheistic type society, but how about a city or a country? I ask this because the complexity of human interaction comes to the point to where an accepted code of values must exist between strangers. How would a society on such a scale maintain order? Could a society as complex as ours have even formed without a universal religion? To have your entire society turned upside down may not be for your own good. Again, is atheism productive?

Are you saying that most people would not be kind and honest to each other unless they thought that something big, menacing, and all-knowing was watching them all the time?

Have you ever told a white lie to your husbands/wives? Sometimes the truth is not for the good. Something that is not for your benefit or anyone else�s can not be productive.

You are obviously not making distinctions between an untruth that only spares feelings and causes no harm, and an untruth that causes people to believe in things that are not there so they can be easily manipulated causing a great deal of harm. Therefore, your premise is flawed.

Jennifer

Edited to try to differentiate between his/her posts and mine. I tried to use italics, but they still don't jump out since everything is in bold.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Amazon ]

Tom Sawyer · 10-31-2002, 11:04 AM

Is there a FAQ on this site for theist trolls?

Every few weeks there seems to be another guy asking the exact same questions. It would be a lot easier to just point them towards that than bother to respond to the same ignorant rants time and time again.

Eudaimonist · 10-31-2002, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zentraedi:
He/she who claims to be an atheist can not claim to be raised in a society full of atheist. Can beliefs in atheism hold its own? Can a man war-torn, on the brink of death, reaching his hand out toward help for days-on-end come up with a theory of godlessness that will settle his fears? Is Atheism productive?

I don't think the measure of a way of life is found in how well people are able to deal with melodramatically tragic situations. Rather, it's good advice for day-to-day living that we most need. Be that as it may...

Atheism isn't a way of life unto itself, and so it cannot provide any of these benefits. However, there are atheistic ways of life. For example, my way of life is Eudaimonism, and I participate in the <a href="http://www.fellowshipofreason.com/" target="_blank">Fellowship of Reason</a>, which is my moral community. We value heroic engagement with life, which means we try to live the sort of lives in which we'll have no regrets on our deathbeds, because we'll have already lived lives worth living.

Quote:

My belief is that no man/woman can function without some sort reassurance from a foreign intelligence, be it imaginary or not. What does an atheist do when the reassurance is not present in a physical manner?

We get by with a little help from our friends. And loved ones. Other that that, earned self-esteem is very helpful. Art can also be energizing if it captures a valued moral ideal.

Quote:

How would the rules of society work, based on an atheist point of view? Do you like the way your society works at the moment? Would you want change in the manner of your beliefs? Another words do you practice what you preach?

Individual rights and free market capitalism work for me. I vote Libertarian.

Quote:

How would your morals work in a non-religious society?

Very well.

Ask a silly question...

Quote:

You�d probably base them off the ones you already know of.

Sure, but my morals are based in a philosophy of rational virtues. These morals are to some extent inspired by the investigations of pagan Greek ethicists, and don't rely on anything supernatural. They certainly aren't just plaguarized from Christianity. Sorry.

I personally have thought up a few virtues that are not based on any other virtues I've ever seen published. An example is context-sensitivity, which is the virtue of always keeping in mind the personal context of the people one interacts with. I might be repeating something that has already been invented, but the idea is still original with me.

Zentraedi · 10-31-2002, 11:20 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LadyShea:
Sure they can. I know several people raised in Russia under the Soviets. Religion was not allowed, and after the USSR fell they were told "Oh BTW our family is Jewish"...it didn't take and they are still atheists.

The U.S.S.R. was never full of atheist, they were just not allowed to practice their beliefs. The U.S.S.R. began with people of religion.

We don't believe in atheism, we disbelieve in deities

Atheism is a belief correct? I think you believe in atheism and disbelieve in deities.

How would a theory of god do any better in settling fears?

Believing in god is based on settling fears. Don�t you fear the unknown?

Productive in what way?

Well, if you would have read everything in context below what was written here, you'd know in what way I was referring.

Well good for you...too bad you are wrong since many of us function just fine without mythical reassurances (whatever that means)

I'm wrong that you need reassurance in your life? Has anyone ever let you know that everything will be okay? A doctor ever told you that you are cured? Has an astronomer ever told you that pluto exists? *rubs his head*

For some odd reason we rely on ourselves

I feel sorry for you, if you think you can go through life with the help from no one other then yourself. How fortunate you must be to not have to count on anyone other than yourself.

What rules? Each society sets its own rules. Each person decides their own morals.

To be specific, the rules that you believe. Each person decides their own morals. How do you come to a conclusion on what your morals are?

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Zentraedi ]

Mageth · 10-31-2002, 11:25 AM

Don�t you fear the unknown?

If it's unknown, why should I fear it?

Zentraedi · 10-31-2002, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
Don�t you fear the unknown?

If it's unknown, why should I fear it?

Well because its dangerous to do so.

Zentraedi · 10-31-2002, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sandlewood:
If your goal is to learn and understand the truth about reality, then how is religion productive? That�s your belief but not mine. How does it help you if you know the foreign intelligence is imaginary?

It does not if you think it imaginary.

Zentraedi · 10-31-2002, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:


A system of rules that seeks to balance the rights of the individual with the rights of the majority should handle this. No god needed.

This has not been proven.

Viti · 10-31-2002, 11:36 AM

This is just silly but okay I'll play for a bit since I am bored.

Quote:

The U.S.S.R. was never full of atheist, they were just not allowed to practice their beliefs. The U.S.S.R. began with people of religion.

These were young people who had never been introduced to any religious beliefs until the USSR fell. No god belief=atheist

Quote:

Atheism is a belief correct?

Incorrect, very very few atheists make the positive statement "I believe there are no deities"...most simply disbelieve

Quote:

Believing in god is based on settling fears. Don’t you fear the unknown?

No I don't really fear the unknown...what would there be to base this fear on? Should I make up possible scenarios to be afraid of? I am much more afraid of what is known to be honest.

Quote:

I'm wrong that you need reassurance in your life? Has anyone ever let you know that everything will be okay? A doctor ever told you that you are cured? Has an astronomer ever told you that pluto exists? *rubs his head*

I meant I function without emotional reassurances such as "Everything will be okay"...there is no way of knowing the outcome of a certain situation...so I take the active steps to produce the best outcome myself. I have never had an illness that I needed to be told I was "cured" of, but I would demand to see the tests, xrays, whatever for myself if it came to that. I don't need to take the WORD of an astronomer...most are happy to supply you with the pictures etc to see Pluto for yourself.

Quote:

I feel sorry for you, if you think you can go through life with the help from no one other then yourself. How fortunate you must be to not have to count on anyone other than yourself.

I accept help and support from others....but I do not rely upon it. All I know for a fact is that I am born me, gotta live as me, and will die me...everything else may be temporary. Why on Earth would you feel sorry for me?

Quote:

To be specific, the rules that you believe. Each person decides their own morals. How do you come to a conclusion on what your morals are?

This is a question for another time and forum. I am a moral subjectivist and believe morals are based on what we each value in a nutshell.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]

xeren · 10-31-2002, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zentraedi:
Well because its dangerous [not] to do so.

Why? An example would be great.

10-31-2002, 11:20 AM	#14
Zentraedi Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Anytown, USA Posts: 103	[QUOTE]Originally posted by LadyShea: Sure they can. I know several people raised in Russia under the Soviets. Religion was not allowed, and after the USSR fell they were told "Oh BTW our family is Jewish"...it didn't take and they are still atheists. The U.S.S.R. was never full of atheist, they were just not allowed to practice their beliefs. The U.S.S.R. began with people of religion. We don't believe in atheism, we disbelieve in deities Atheism is a belief correct? I think you believe in atheism and disbelieve in deities. How would a theory of god do any better in settling fears? Believing in god is based on settling fears. Don�t you fear the unknown? Productive in what way? Well, if you would have read everything in context below what was written here, you'd know in what way I was referring. Well good for you...too bad you are wrong since many of us function just fine without mythical reassurances (whatever that means) I'm wrong that you need reassurance in your life? Has anyone ever let you know that everything will be okay? A doctor ever told you that you are cured? Has an astronomer ever told you that pluto exists? rubs his head For some odd reason we rely on ourselves I feel sorry for you, if you think you can go through life with the help from no one other then yourself. How fortunate you must be to not have to count on anyone other than yourself. What rules? Each society sets its own rules. Each person decides their own morals. To be specific, the rules that you believe. Each person decides their own morals. How do you come to a conclusion on what your morals are? [ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Zentraedi ]</p>

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10-31-2002, 11:04 AM	#12
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	Is there a FAQ on this site for theist trolls? Every few weeks there seems to be another guy asking the exact same questions. It would be a lot easier to just point them towards that than bother to respond to the same ignorant rants time and time again.

10-31-2002, 11:25 AM	#15
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Don�t you fear the unknown? If it's unknown, why should I fear it?

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