Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corwin · 09-20-2002, 08:06 AM

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Corwin, what is "chi?" Please describe chi. How does it get in our bodies? How does it's flow affect our bodies? What tools or devices can be used to measure chi and its flow? How, exactly, do the needles of acupuncture re-align chi? Are they special needles? Is there a way to re-align chi without the use of needles? Does chi react chemically with our bodies?

The answer to most of this is 'we don't know for sure' and 'it doesn't matter.' Unless you also demand an explanation for the Spirit of the Willow Tree that takes away your headache when you take an aspirin....

Odd explanations of positive results means you look for more reasonable and provable answers. It does NOT mean you casually disregard the positive results.

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The gastro-intestinel (GI) system can be closed off easily. (nose, mouth and anus) What if you were under anesthesia and we pumped enough water up there? Would you burn to death or spontaneously combust?

Neither. You'd die of internal bleeding from a ruptured colon.

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Skepticism is not synonymous with "aversion."

Rick

Knee-jerk skepticism based on 'oh that CAN'T work because it's just too freaky' is, however.

Mad Kally · 09-20-2002, 08:14 AM

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posted by Alek0:
Alex0: You have compared it with prayer and faith healing. Shall I assume that you consider these possibly effective as well?

Yes, once again the placebo effect.

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Posted by Siren:
If you remember, you attacked me there for arguing the placebo effect.

I know about the placebo effect Siren. Sometimes it's medications, treatments, and sometimes there are other reasons that things work. Please note that I said sometimes.

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"somatoform" somatoform disorders

Miller-Keane Medical Dictionary, 2000

A group of mental disorders in which physical symptoms suggest the presence of a physical disorder but there are no organic findings. There may be positive evidence or a strong presumption of associated pathologic factors. Symptoms are not under voluntary control, unlike those occurring in "factitious disorders" FACTITIOUS DISORDERS. The category includes: "body dysmorphic disorder, conversion disorder, hypochondriasis, somatization disorder, somatoform pain disorder" BODY DYSMORPHIC DISORDER, CONVERSION DISORDER, HYPOCHONDRIASIS, SOMATIZATION DISORDER, SOMATOFORM PAIN DISORDER, and "undifferentiated somatoform disorder" UNDIFFERENTIATED SOMATOFORM DISORDER.

Dr Rick · 09-20-2002, 08:22 AM

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Originally posted by alek0:
There are objective studies which show positive results. And there are studies which show that it doesn't work. Instead of saying so clearly, you have compared acupuncture to prayer and faith healing. Is that objective and scientific?

That's a lie; I compared the anecdotes bg was using to be personally convinced of acupuncture's effectiveness to the methodology that convinces others of prayer. The criticism was of the method of inquiry (anecdotes), not the subject of the inquiry (acupuncture).

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And where did I tell anyone that he/she was full of it?

You didn't, but you're dishonest by implying that I did without provocation. You're also dishonest in misrepresenting my position with your strawmen.

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You have compared it with prayer and faith healing. Shall I assume that you consider these possibly effective as well?

You are repeating your lies; I compared the methodology of a poster to that used by those that believe in prayer.

It is hypocritical of you to be so dishonest and insulting after posting a "lecture" on how to behave on these fora.

Rick

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]

alek0 · 09-20-2002, 08:36 AM

I don't see where the provocation was, and even if there was any it is still rude to tell someone that he/she is full of shit.

As for your other statements, maybe it would help to avoid confusion if you would actually state your position on acupuncture clearly. I thought that the topic of the thread was acupuncture. Obviously, I was wrong. It seems to be more important to ridicule other people than to actually debate the original topic.

Mad Kally · 09-20-2002, 08:37 AM

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posted by Siren:
Kally maybe you should search for my threads regarding Anti-depressants and my study of them. If you remember, you attacked me there for arguing the placebo effect. Look back at your own arguments.

I did. <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=57&t=000254&p=" target="_blank"> Placebos work just as well as SSRI's? </a>

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Posted by me:
One of the most significant but widely misunderstood phenomena is the placebo effect. Research shows that the placebo effect can be greater and is far more ubiquitous than commonly thought.

Paracelsus (Swiss alchemist and physician 1493-1541) wrote: "You must know that the will is a powerful adjuvant of medicine." It is imperative that skeptics recognize the wisdom and warnings inherent in this statement.

Dr Rick · 09-20-2002, 08:46 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by alek0:
[QB]I don't see where the provocation was, and even if there was any it is still rude to tell someone that he/she is full of shit.[qb][quote]

I did see the provocation. You are not the IIDB behavior nanny, nor are you a good example of civil and objective posting; concentrate on cleaning-up your own act.

Rick

Dr Rick · 09-20-2002, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by SirenSpeak...:

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What exactly are you trying to accomplish by repeatedly coming to this thread and, having lost your objectivity long ago, continuing to spew insults and not keep the conversation productive?

...after he had posted all of this:

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And dont give me that crap that acupuncture is risky...if you have such a hard-on for proof, show me some besides anectdotal (IE from some website) evidence...it was that BS strawman argument again....That section of the site is the biggest bunch of crap I've had the misfortune to come accross in quite awhile...Bullshit rhetoric, and a medical strawman argument if I ever saw one. Have to do better then that...christ...You have got to be kidding me...

Veil of Fire · 09-20-2002, 09:29 AM

So, Rick, it's ok for you to be a prick if someone else is too?

Once again, atheists show complete dismissal of the golden rule.

Kally:

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What is it you don't understand about the placebo effect?

If you're just going to come back to insult people, Ms. Oh-Please-Pity-Me-I-Was-Raised-By-Fundies-and-I-Bring-it-up-in-every-third-post-I-make-relevant-or-not, why come back at all?

The only thing there is to understand about the placebo effect is that it's a nice happy place to dump all the 'mystical' practices that you've failed to debunk.

Veil of Fire · 09-20-2002, 09:32 AM

Rick, at no point has anyone made a PERSONAL ATTACK against you... but that's all you seem capable of doing.

And you call someone ELSE intellectually dishonest?

Mad Kally · 09-20-2002, 09:36 AM

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posted by Veil:
The only thing there is to understand about the placebo effect is that it's a nice happy place to dump all the 'mystical' practices that you've failed to debunk.

Tell me more about these 'mystical practices'.

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posted by Veil:
If you're just going to come back to insult people, Ms. Oh-Please-Pity-Me-I-Was-Raised-By-Fundies-and-I-Bring-it-up-in-every-third-post-I-make-relevant-or-not, why come back at all?

And this isn't a personal attack?

The great and wise Veil has spoken!!!!!

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]

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09-20-2002, 08:36 AM	#124
alek0 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 640	I don't see where the provocation was, and even if there was any it is still rude to tell someone that he/she is full of shit. As for your other statements, maybe it would help to avoid confusion if you would actually state your position on acupuncture clearly. I thought that the topic of the thread was acupuncture. Obviously, I was wrong. It seems to be more important to ridicule other people than to actually debate the original topic.

09-20-2002, 08:46 AM	#126
Dr Rick Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,393	[QUOTE]Originally posted by alek0: [QB]I don't see where the provocation was, and even if there was any it is still rude to tell someone that he/she is full of shit.[qb][quote] I did see the provocation. You are not the IIDB behavior nanny, nor are you a good example of civil and objective posting; concentrate on cleaning-up your own act. Rick

09-20-2002, 09:32 AM	#129
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	Rick, at no point has anyone made a PERSONAL ATTACK against you... but that's all you seem capable of doing. And you call someone ELSE intellectually dishonest?

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