Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jj · 02-24-2003, 01:58 PM

Leaving aside the question that needs to be answered for this topic to be relevant in the first place, that being:

Does atheism need to explain anything?

To which, as you may have anticipated, I reply: Does a-green-cheesism have to explain anything?

I am a robot. I am predetermined to believe in free will!

Eikonoklast · 02-24-2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JGL53

It's always seemed to me that Marxists and Randroids, like a lot of fundamentalist literalist christians, can't think, or rather can't think for themselves, but only parrot the party line over and over again until everyone just throws up and goes home.

Maybe the Keith program can get together with the Marxists and the Objectivists on a new thread addressing the questions 'Is there an objective truth, or is all truth subjective?' and 'Is MY objective truth truer than YOUR objective truth.'. Maybe the strange loop thus created would wind so tight it would implode, then explode like a superduper supernova and destroy all of reality. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Randroid? Me? Sorry my friend, but you got me wrong. I assume you are referring to me with that comment since I am the only one who posted something that would be applicable to Rand. Keith wanted an objective standard for morals so I tried to give him one. I was really more interested in having him prove his claim that "God" provides that objective standard.

As far as Rand goes, I think that she hit upon an important point in that values do presuppose a valuer, and that it is only the concept of life that allows values to exist. As far as everything else she has to say -- I could take it or leave it. Sometimes I agree with her and sometimes I don't.

Some interesting thread titles you posted there. But I'm not interested in defending such a position.

Some Loser · 02-24-2003, 11:01 PM

Quote:

You know God on some level because he has created the universe in such a way that it clearly displays order, design, and purpose.

Then you are saying that God must exist since the universe has order? Why must something with order have to have been created by a god? Does this mean God has no "order, design, and purpose" or else He too was created by yet another God? I fail to see why "order, design, and purpose" would require a creator since that creator would in turn require at least as much "order, design, and purpose" in order to create His creation.

Shadowy Man · 02-25-2003, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Some Loser
I fail to see why "order, design, and purpose" would require a creator...

Even if it did, it isn't relevant since design and purpose are not observed in the universe. You only see design and purpose if you have already assumed a creator god to exist.

Keith Russell · 02-25-2003, 05:22 PM

Shadow:

I disagree. Evolution favours organisms that have evolved with certain features. These features could be said to have been 'designed' toward a 'purpose'--namely, survival.

The 'designer', though, in no way has to be conscious--let alone any sort of 'God'.

Keith.

Primal · 02-25-2003, 06:43 PM

Also the theist always seems to ignore the question of who disgned such a benvolent complex God...or did God arive by chance?

If so how lucky we are to get a nice God out of a infinite amount of Gods, most of whom would prolly be malevolent. Design? Well there are a lock of rocks and hydrogen, I guess the universe was designed for hydrogen....

Personally I go by causality and necessity. It's kind of hard to maintain that our universe was improbable when it is the only option I see available. To me that makes the odds what? 100 percent, with no designer needed.

Shadowy Man · 02-25-2003, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Russell

I disagree. Evolution favours organisms that have evolved with certain features. [b]These features could be said to have been 'designed' toward a 'purpose'--namely, survival.[/b[

Or they could just look that way because they happened to be the ones that survived. The ones that died off would look like they were "designed" rather poorly - though since they didn't survive we don't get to see them.

It's a type of confirmation bias.

Answerer · 02-25-2003, 08:33 PM

I bet Keith will love to see some of us burn in hell right now.

Keith Russell · 02-25-2003, 08:35 PM

Shadow:

Do you really think it just 'happened' that the cockroaches who survived were immune to the latest version of Raid, and the ones who didn't, just happened to lack the necessary immunity?

Keith.

Shadowy Man · 02-25-2003, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Russell
Shadow:

Do you really think it just 'happened' that the cockroaches who survived were immune to the latest version of Raid, and the ones who didn't, just happened to lack the necessary immunity?

Keith.

Yes. It definitely appears that way. I don't claim to know the answer to everything, or to know how things may have played out in evolution on billion year time scales, but from everything that I have learned about the universe through all of my intensive studies of its workings, I am fairly confident that there's nothing about evolution that requires a non-naturalistic explanation.

02-24-2003, 01:58 PM	#311
jj Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Redmond, Wa Posts: 937	The relevance of it all... Leaving aside the question that needs to be answered for this topic to be relevant in the first place, that being: Does atheism need to explain anything? To which, as you may have anticipated, I reply: Does a-green-cheesism have to explain anything? I am a robot. I am predetermined to believe in free will!

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02-25-2003, 05:22 PM	#315
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Shadow: I disagree. Evolution favours organisms that have evolved with certain features. These features could be said to have been 'designed' toward a 'purpose'--namely, survival. The 'designer', though, in no way has to be conscious--let alone any sort of 'God'. Keith.

02-25-2003, 06:43 PM	#316
Primal Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Marcos Posts: 551	Also the theist always seems to ignore the question of who disgned such a benvolent complex God...or did God arive by chance? If so how lucky we are to get a nice God out of a infinite amount of Gods, most of whom would prolly be malevolent. Design? Well there are a lock of rocks and hydrogen, I guess the universe was designed for hydrogen.... Personally I go by causality and necessity. It's kind of hard to maintain that our universe was improbable when it is the only option I see available. To me that makes the odds what? 100 percent, with no designer needed.

02-25-2003, 08:33 PM	#318
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	I bet Keith will love to see some of us burn in hell right now.

02-25-2003, 08:35 PM	#319
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Shadow: Do you really think it just 'happened' that the cockroaches who survived were immune to the latest version of Raid, and the ones who didn't, just happened to lack the necessary immunity? Keith.

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